Drugs

Gelzo · 2012-09-20 18:16:47

Guess I might as well start out with a disclaimer so I don't come off as too much of a nut. I have a lot of positive things to say about drugs, but I recognize that there's some pretty dark shit in that category as well. I don't want to be what motivates anyone to experiment with anything that has a high likelihood of causing serious harm, legal problems, or even just a bad trip. Educate yourself, have a buddy you have good reason to trust, and be in a safe and comfortable place both mentally and physically before trying anything that can have a profound effect on your brain.

I've had alcohol, marijuana, LSD, and mushrooms. Of those four, I've had the worst experiences with alcohol. I'd recommend trying them if it's something you can handle. You get a different perspective on things, and that's something I find very rewarding.

Imipolex G · 2012-09-20 18:20:11

I've never done drugs, but at least we get good music from them

Unknown · 2012-09-20 18:22:58

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Imipolex G · 2012-09-20 18:23:53

An LSD-laced Frosty. Someone, somewhere, must've done that.

Unknown · 2012-09-20 18:24:56

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Unknown · 2012-09-20 18:28:47

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Gelzo · 2012-09-20 18:29:23

Frosty said:
*trips*

Great, now you spilled it everywhere.

^What was that like?

Unknown · 2012-09-20 18:30:03

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Obā-san · 2012-09-20 18:33:50

My mom said that I should try marijuana sometime.

Heard it can be fun with some kinds of music, might be worth a go.

Gelzo · 2012-09-20 18:41:04

It makes some things taste really good, too.

I can still remember how godly that macaroni and cheese my friend made was.

Haven · 2012-09-20 18:52:09

Let's see. I've gotten high once, it was kind of fun. Good wine is one of life's gifts.

LSD is on my bucket list.

Unknown · 2012-09-20 18:53:27

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Sredni Vashtar · 2012-09-20 20:56:28

I don't think I have the right brain chemistry for doing LSD.

In terms of recreational drugs, I'm actually one of the least experienced people in my circle of friends; I've never smoked pot, and I don't like being drunk. That being said, one of my regular prescriptions is barbiturate-based, and I have been administered all sorts of narcotics and stimulants for different purposes over the course of my life, so really I've had more experiences with drugs than any of them, for better and for worse.

I must say that amphetamines in particular are weird. It's like wearing a glasses prescription that's too intense for your eyes, except that everything is like that. It's interesting, but not something I would do for kicks.

Watching stoners is kind of funny, yet it does become annoying after a while. On the other hand, drunks are almost always a pain in the rear.

One-Winged Eagle · 2012-09-20 21:06:14

Actually, psychedelic music and the like is composed /sober/, because while you're drugged your coordination goes to hell and all you're left with is a jumble of nonsense notes, to say nothing of the confusion in trying to express what you're feeling.

Sure, alcohol and drugs might be used for inspiration (however arguably successful such a practice is), but the actual composition work is done without drugs.

Obā-san · 2012-09-20 21:07:18

kingCrackers said:
Actually, psychedelic music and the like is composed /sober/, because while you're drugged your coordination goes to hell and all you're left with is a jumble of nonsense notes.

Sure, alcohol and drugs might be used for inspiration (however arguably successful such a practice is), but the actual composition work is done without drugs.

I know that.

Obā-san · 2012-09-20 21:11:48

I meant, like consuming music. Like smoking a joint while listening to Take As Needed For Pain or something.

Because that would be sweet.

Obā-san · 2012-09-20 21:13:07

Or maybe Dopesick...

Sredni Vashtar · 2012-09-20 21:15:05

I think it would be most appropriate to consume mushrooms while listening to the last track of Time Machines.

I'll get to it, one day.

Obā-san · 2012-09-20 21:21:45

I've heard scary things about 'shrooms, once again from my mom.

why does most of my knowledge of illegal substances come from my mom

Gelzo · 2012-09-20 21:43:47

Going by what I know, psychadelics like LSD and shrooms make you more emotionally sensitive and (at least for me) philosophical.

If you're comfortable with reality and have some kind of control over your moods, I think you're much more likely to have a good experience with it. As for me, I feel like having had these experiences makes me better able to love life while sober.

I guess it's possible for things to go in the other direction, but I can't recall any examples of one trip completely ruining a person.

Sredni Vashtar · 2012-09-20 22:54:59

^^ Well, there's always the chance that the person selling them to you decided to go on the cheap and soaked some regular dried mushrooms in PCP. Or, more likely, you ended up with the wrong kind of mushroom. Toadstools are nasty business.

^ Stronger psychedelics are apparently quite dangerous to take if you have a family history of mental illness, although even ecstasy can royally screw up some people. Generally it takes a couple of bad episodes to do any very serious damage, however.

Corporal Forsythe · 2012-09-20 22:57:39

Everything I've ever read about disassociatives like PCP frightens the shit out of me.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-09-21 01:51:30

Even if I didn't see the appeal (and in all cases sans LSD I really don't), the family history of addiction to everything under the sun alone would be enough for me to never even consider partaking in recreational drugs.

Sredni Vashtar · 2012-09-21 08:37:29

^^ Indeed.

^ Probably a good idea.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-09-21 12:09:28

Frankly I've been wondering lately if I'm addicted to Benadryl. I take it more than I strictly should but the stuff does work.

Corporal Forsythe · 2012-09-21 13:07:57

Super Läzuli said:
Frankly I've been wondering lately if I'm addicted to Benadryl. I take it more than I strictly should but the stuff does work.

Diphenydramine is something you can build a tolerance to and quickly, but I've never heard of actual addiction.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-09-21 13:10:23

Maybe I'm just paranoid, then.

My allergies leave my ears all clogged up a lot, so I take it pretty often. Seems to work as a decongestant.

Unknown · 2012-09-21 13:34:29

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Corporal Forsythe · 2012-09-21 13:43:16

Some chemicals trigger a stronger addiction than others. Nicotine is one I've experienced that's a bit scary in that regard, I quit like 3 years ago and 50 years from now if I pick up a cigarette I'll be hooked all over again like I never quit. Alcohol, I'm not so sure about. I used to drink heroic amounts -- 12-18 beers per night back in the Corps (not bragging, drinking that much is stupid and I was stupid) and a few years ago it simply just lost its charm with me and I rarely drink anymore; and when I do I can stop after one or two.

From what I understand, when it comes to drug addiction, opiate followed by cocaine addictions are the worst. I've only experienced the mild painkiller version of opiates (codeine, vicodin) and I've been shot with demerol as well which means I've only barely experienced what those drugs can do; I can't imagine an overwhelming addiction to them. Too frightening to consider.

Corporal Forsythe · 2012-09-21 13:47:28

Oh, and one thing I will argue about until I'm blue in the face -- and Penn and Teller will back me up on this (they spent an entire episode of Bullshit! on it) -- addiction is not a disease.

There are no other actual diseases on the books that require a 12-step program where the first step is submitting to a "higher power" followed by a regimen of religious and/or secular spiritualism. I consider Alcoholics Anonymous to be a cult (not a particularly dangerous one but one nonetheless) and from what I understand, NarcoAnon is headed up by Scientology.

Obā-san · 2012-09-21 13:50:43

dis·ease
[dih-zeez] Show IPA noun, verb, dis·eased, dis·eas·ing.
noun
1.
a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.
2.
any abnormal condition in a plant that interferes with its vital physiological processes, caused by pathogenic microorganisms, parasites, unfavorable environmental, genetic, or nutritional factors, etc.
3.
any harmful, depraved, or morbid condition, as of the mind or society: His fascination with executions is a disease.

It seems to fit the definition.

Unknown · 2012-09-21 13:54:19

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Obā-san · 2012-09-21 13:59:36

I've seen AA help plenty of people, and the meetings I've been to haven't been that weird.

Also, cults involve entirely novel religious ideas and practices, whereas AA revolves around, for a lack of a better description, christian ones that have been bland-ified as so to be palatable to any non-christian people who need help.

And all the 12-step program is supposed to do is help build willpower, a person is still an alcoholic, no matter how many years sober they are.

Unknown · 2012-09-21 14:04:06

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Obā-san · 2012-09-21 14:05:34

They are for sure, but they help some people.

Corporal Forsythe · 2012-09-21 15:31:53

One of the things that Penn and Teller touched on is AA's success rate. It's exactly the same as anyone else's rate of success when it comes to quitting. Statistically, they don't make any difference.

The other bit is how a person has to admit they're "powerless" in the face of this addiction. That's a cop-out and why it's so appealing is it allows people to dodge responsibility. Gosh, it's not my fault that I got drunk and out of control and beat the shit out of my frightened wife and children. It was the booze. I was powerless to stop it. Pity me.

While I was in the Corps I got a little concerned over my drinking habit so I voluntarily went in and talked to the counselors at the addiction center on base and I was diagnosed as "alcohol dependent." I was encouraged to attend group counseling with them and AA and was fed this line of cock and bull about my addiction. I was told that for the rest of my life I'd be an out of control drinker and need to submit to a "higher power" (which could be anything I choose it to be which is hilarious if you think about it) in order to control this mess that I'm in. You know that I'm a Christian myself and to I'd agree to those terms, but not in a secular setting where it's watered down to the point that it satisfies even hardcore atheists. To make a long story short, I got kicked out of the group a week later. This was in 2007, about 5 years ago.

The last time I had a drink was the winery I worked at this summer for a few days gave each of us a bottle of wine for working there. I had a glass with a meal of shrimp scampi I prepared. That was it. Also, I'm not the only person who drank themselves stupid every night for a sustained period in their life and then later was able to be in complete control of it. Among other bullshit AA tries to feed people, one of them is saying this very thing is impossible.

Also AA is thrust on people by our courts of law. This is no different than forcing religion on people and it needs to be stopped.

Unknown · 2012-09-21 15:34:11

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Corporal Forsythe · 2012-09-21 15:56:53

Frosty said:
Can the "higher power" be a slice of cheese? :D

It can be literally anything. A slice of cheese, a doorknob, a doorknob wearing a slice of cheese, it doesn't matter. Even Unitarianism isn't as liberal as AA when it comes to injecting spirituality into your life.

Unknown · 2012-09-21 16:25:29

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Odradek · 2012-09-21 16:28:13

I have a caffeine addiction.

I wish I was more interesting.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-09-21 16:28:15

My higher power of choice would be Primus.

lee4hmz · 2012-09-21 16:43:55

Forsythe: You're thinking of Narconon. Narcotics Anonymous is a separate group, and as far as I know isn't connected to Scientology or any other dodgy groups.

As for addiction itself, it depends. Opiates cause a physical dependence that has to be treated medically; if you're a serious junkie and you quit cold turkey, you could die. Otherwise, it's a behavioral problem and should be treated as such.

Gelzo · 2012-09-21 18:05:30

I think the time I came out to my mom as an atheist was when after I visited an AA meeting for some middle school project. I told her I was distressed that there was a form of strength from the higher power stuff that I'd never have access to. I have to say I feel kind of satisfied to hear about it being a crock.

Corporal Forsythe · 2012-09-21 18:20:53

I'm not going to argue the value of group therapy or counseling, but being told that there's a strict 12-step method to accomplishing something and there is no other way coupled with submitting yourself to a form of spiritualism in the process all while being told this is a way to treat a disease should be troubling to anyone, theist or atheist.

The bottom line is, if you want to stop drinking or doing drugs (for the most part, see Lee's post above) you can simply just stop drinking or taking drugs. It may not be easy, but it can be done and to say that it can't in order to sell a psuedoreligious philosophy is just wrong.

Tachyon · 2012-09-21 18:53:57

Frosty said:
Can the "higher power" be a slice of cheese? :D

Only if you honestly believe that the slice of cheese in question is more powerful than you.

Haven · 2012-09-21 19:22:21

The bottom line is, if you want to stop drinking or doing drugs (for the most part, see Lee's post above) you can simply just stop drinking or taking drugs. It may not be easy, but it can be done and to say that it can't in order to sell a psuedoreligious philosophy is just wrong.

Yeah, and if you want to stop being depressed, just stop being depressed. If you're schizophrenic, suck it up and stop hallucinating! Come on, man.

Have you ever actually seen an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting? It's just a bunch of people getting together in a church basement with donuts and coffee, sharing their stories. It's so weird to see this much vitriol directed at that. And its effectiveness is actually a really complicated topic, not the kind of thing you can cover in a single episode of Penn and Teller.

Yes, there are people who would have stopped drinking without it, and there are people who tried it and it didn't work. But there are also people who wouldn't have stopped drinking without it. The former two groups are, if nothing else, no worse off than they were before, but whatever you think the size of the latter is, it's enough to make it a net positive. To say the least.

Corporal Forsythe · 2012-09-21 19:51:55

Yeah, and if you want to stop being depressed, just stop being depressed. If you're schizophrenic, suck it up and stop hallucinating! Come on, man.

Have you ever actually seen an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting? It's just a bunch of people getting together in a church basement with donuts and coffee, sharing their stories. It's so weird to see this much vitriol directed at that. And
its effectiveness is actually a really complicated topic, not the kind of thing you can cover in a single episode of Penn and Teller.

Yes, there are people who would have stopped drinking without it, and there are people who tried it and it didn't work. But there are also people who wouldn't have stopped drinking without it. The former two groups are, if nothing else, no worse off than they were before, but whatever you think the size of the latter is, it's enough to make it a net positive. To say the least.

I'm not a doctor, but from what I understand, depression by itself is a medical condition -- an imbalance -- that has little to nothing to do with direct outside influence such as drugs or alcohol. You can't simply decide to get happy, but you can simply decide not to pick up that can of beer. The comparison you're employing here doesn't work.

Yes, I've been to several Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. As I stated a few posts above, I do find merit in people finding support and therapy in this kind of group interaction. What I do have a problem with (as well as Penn and Teller and a great many other people) is that it markets itself in the wrappings of an actual medical cure while it surreptitiously goes about using spirituality and psuedoreligious ideals as its vehicle. They brazenly claim that alcoholism is a disease. And like Penn and Teller, I want to see what other condition labeled as an actual disease by medical science that requires first submitting yourself to a higher power, declaring yourself helpless, and then from there following a strict 12-step program that requires religious-like devotion to follow. What's worse is there's courts in this land that force people to attend these meetings. It's wrong, plain and simple.

Like I stated before, Penn and Teller looked up the actual statistics of people who succeed using AA and the successes (and I am citing this episode, it's on youtube last I looked) -- and people who lapse back into their addiction -- are the same. If AA was such a huge success like it's made out to be, it would at least turn up in those figures and it does not. And speaking for myself, the only thing I think it accomplishes is trading one addiction for another.

Also, I'm not saying that quitting an addiction is easy. What I am saying is it's not impossible, and this goes for everyone. For something like opiate addiction, like heroin, I can understand requiring medical attention -- from real medical professionals, not people marketing spirituality. Every year millions of people worldwide take responsibility for their lives and tell themselves no and put down the alcohol or drug and do so without the likes of AA.

Sredni Vashtar · 2012-09-21 23:35:25

I also take issue with the notion of having to submit oneself to a "higher power" in pursuit of an escape from addiction, because in the end, while it may be a good temporary coping mechanism, blaming something or someone else can easily become another crutch, and in the case of religious zeal, an even more destructive one for some people than drugs or alcohol.

That being said, most such groups function as that "higher power" in the sense that they serve as a surrogate family disconnected from one's immediate social circle and a powerful support mechanism. Trusting in others so as to gradually come to trust oneself is a very powerful thing. I can also understand the step structure's strictness, in that providing a structured base for recovery is a great way to make the individual feel in control of their own life. But flexibility is imperative: A dogmatic adherence to the process can make any disordered step in the recovery feel like another failure, and that's a really awful thing.

What I'm saying is that care needs to be taken, and that community and the ability to accept oneself are more important than the formalities so often emphasised.

Unknown · 2012-09-21 23:38:16

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Obā-san · 2012-09-21 23:39:51

That is why when I was younger I was going to buy all of the breweries and distilleries and liquor stores in all the world and set them on fire.

Corporal Forsythe · 2012-09-21 23:48:34

All that aside, I think the reason I was able to put down the booze so easily was because the main reason I got shitfaced every day was simply because I enjoyed it. I fucking loved getting off of duty for the day and kicking back boozing. I was enjoying life for the most part and had no complaints. I wasn't medicating my grief or anything, but I did realize that there was going to come a time in my life where I would.

Also, it's a lot less fun not being around Marines to drink with.

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