Consarnit, why do I miss all the chatter. Not that it wasn't interesting to read while half-awake, but dang. 'cause y'all be night owls, and I swear I'll properly play the next zeitgeisty game.
In any case, I too felt rather attacked when Flowey comments on those that just watch. Undertale is just so impressively self-aware and thorough at every level.
Actually i'd just cleared a pacifist run and had already made up my mind not to do a no mercy run, so that remark legitimately got to me, disingenuous though Flowey is.
i think saying that Flowey "tried to do a no mercy run" isnt quite.... expressive of what he did?
It's not something he's tried once, because he can reset everything via saving who knows how many times he's killed almost everyone? Thousands of times? Millions even? He has probably on numerous occasions simply avoided sans entirely, killed his father, taken the souls, gotten bored with that, reset from there (even if he has the souls that were in Asgore's possession he still cant get past the barrier after all). Maybe sometimes he goes and talks to people, tries to reintegrate into society, still isnt happy, resets. Assuming that the other kids who fell down into the Underground had insufficient determination to override Flowey, he probably toyed with them for ages before getting bored (remember, while all humans have determination, Frisk (and chara) have red souls which are more strongly associated with Determination than the other colors). He has most likely done everything there is to do, and done it countless times. Like the most garbage Homura of all time.
And I wonder what it says about him that he simply never got around to brute-forcing Sans.
I mean, just did what Frisk/Chara does and just does it over and over until muscle memory gets him through it. He has literally infinite time to do this.
maybe some residual guilt? a sort of childish inability to deal with things not going his way, magnified by lifetimes of absolutely no real opposition?
i assumed he was just scared of Sans, since he warns you not to mess with him
idk, i found it interesting to note that Sans doesn't know about Flowey (Papyrus mentions him and Sans thinks someone's playing a trick on him with an Echo Flower), and Sans doesn't actually remember past resets, he's just aware of them happening
so i assumed that Flowey was so unnerved by Sans that he reset and has avoided him since
i think saying that Flowey "tried to do a no mercy run" isnt quite.... expressive of what he did?
It's not something he's tried once, because he can reset everything via saving who knows how many times he's killed almost everyone? Thousands of times? Millions even? He has probably on numerous occasions simply avoided sans entirely, killed his father, taken the souls, gotten bored with that, reset from there (even if he has the souls that were in Asgore's possession he still cant get past the barrier after all). Maybe sometimes he goes and talks to people, tries to reintegrate into society, still isnt happy, resets. Assuming that the other kids who fell down into the Underground had insufficient determination to override Flowey, he probably toyed with them for ages before getting bored (remember, while all humans have determination, Frisk (and chara) have red souls which are more strongly associated with Determination than the other colors). He has most likely done everything there is to do, and done it countless times. Like the most garbage Homura of all time.
And I wonder what it says about him that he simply never got around to brute-forcing Sans.
To put out two things, not that this isn't good.
1. Flowey never interacted with the other humans, he was born from experiments born from testing with Determination, so... after the humans had already been killed and secured.
2. Flowey mentions killing everyone, but never "Getting the old fool to show him the souls" so while he probably did kill everyone multiple times, he never got to the souls themselves.
i guess i just assumed that if he really knew it was Flowey, he'd say so outright; he does worry about his brother
but Sans is a pretty secretive guy so maybe not
i took the yellow text as just a clue for the player i guess, something Toby put in there rather than Sans
I was thinking that Sans put it there as a clue for the player, a way of tipping his hand to the player that he knows more than he is willing to admit within the world of the game itself.
i think saying that Flowey "tried to do a no mercy run" isnt quite.... expressive of what he did?
It's not something he's tried once, because he can reset everything via saving who knows how many times he's killed almost everyone? Thousands of times? Millions even? He has probably on numerous occasions simply avoided sans entirely, killed his father, taken the souls, gotten bored with that, reset from there (even if he has the souls that were in Asgore's possession he still cant get past the barrier after all). Maybe sometimes he goes and talks to people, tries to reintegrate into society, still isnt happy, resets. Assuming that the other kids who fell down into the Underground had insufficient determination to override Flowey, he probably toyed with them for ages before getting bored (remember, while all humans have determination, Frisk (and chara) have red souls which are more strongly associated with Determination than the other colors). He has most likely done everything there is to do, and done it countless times. Like the most garbage Homura of all time.
And I wonder what it says about him that he simply never got around to brute-forcing Sans.
To put out two things, not that this isn't good.
1. Flowey never interacted with the other humans, he was born from experiments born from testing with Determination, so... after the humans had already been killed and secured.
Is it ever mentioned how many humans it took for the experiments to reach the Flowey stage? Did it take all of them or? Because I was kinda assuming that it took a few of them, then the experiments happened, but then once the experiments didnt pan out they went back to their old "get a bunch of human souls to break the barrier" plan.
2. Flowey mentions killing everyone, but never "Getting the old fool to show him the souls" so while he probably did kill everyone multiple times, he never got to the souls themselves.
quasi-relatedly to what i was talking about earlier i was reading the wiki and
If the player reloads their game and triggers the neutral ending a third time, Flowey asks if the player wants to start the Flowey Fan Club. He then tells the player to talk to Papyrus about it, as he started one multiple times. Flowey goes on to say that Papyrus was one of the better characters to mess around with and took a long time to get bored of him.
. . . i guess a further objection cuz i'm stubborn
if Sans knew Flowey was bugging Papyrus, why didn't he intervene? laziness? the assumption that everything would be reset so it didn't matter?
idk, i mean i can buy that i guess, but Flowey's dangerous and Sans does care about Papyrus, so i feel like he'd want to put a stop to that
i think Sans recalls more than he lets on between runs, but never mentions it explicity because he doesnt want Flowey finding out. If he were to explicitly tell the player that he knows what is up Flowey might overhear as he is always spying on things, so he reveals it in a non-diegetic manner
my favorite bit is the fact that part of WD Gaster's theme shows up in The Song That Might Play When You Fight Sans, because neither song actually shows up in the damn game
Joker's thing with Batman can be called a really, really perverse form of love
this reminds me, when i was in middle school there was this kid i would talk to who really liked superhero comics and IIRC his pet theory was that the reason the joker was so crazy was because he knew that he was a comic book villain so none of the killing he did would actually matter and he cant really die because the fans want him around
Joker's thing with Batman can be called a really, really perverse form of love
this reminds me, when i was in middle school there was this kid i would talk to who really liked superhero comics and IIRC his pet theory was that the reason the joker was so crazy was because he knew that he was a comic book villain so none of the killing he did would actually matter and he cant really die because the fans want him around
Joker's thing with Batman can be called a really, really perverse form of love
this reminds me, when i was in middle school there was this kid i would talk to who really liked superhero comics and IIRC his pet theory was that the reason the joker was so crazy was because he knew that he was a comic book villain so none of the killing he did would actually matter and he cant really die because the fans want him around
Joker's thing with Batman can be called a really, really perverse form of love
this reminds me, when i was in middle school there was this kid i would talk to who really liked superhero comics and IIRC his pet theory was that the reason the joker was so crazy was because he knew that he was a comic book villain so none of the killing he did would actually matter and he cant really die because the fans want him around
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
It's not a theory that gets a lot of play, honestly, and I'm actually pretty tired of fourth-wall breaking in general.
Like Undertale is fine with it's player culpability and messing with your files and quitting the game, but I'm just tired of "hahaha I'm talking to the audience, aren't I wacky," which is what a lot of Joker/Deadpool/whatever turns into.
Comments
Actually i'd just cleared a pacifist run and had already made up my mind not to do a no mercy run, so that remark legitimately got to me, disingenuous though Flowey is.
At least, certain comments of his on the neutral ending and his no mercy New Home monologue suggest that.
But you're right about Flowey, he hasn't simply 'tried to do a no mercy run', that's not it.
idk, i found it interesting to note that Sans doesn't know about Flowey (Papyrus mentions him and Sans thinks someone's playing a trick on him with an Echo Flower), and Sans doesn't actually remember past resets, he's just aware of them happening
so i assumed that Flowey was so unnerved by Sans that he reset and has avoided him since
that is a good point
i guess i just assumed that if he really knew it was Flowey, he'd say so outright; he does worry about his brother
but Sans is a pretty secretive guy so maybe not
i took the yellow text as just a clue for the player i guess, something Toby put in there rather than Sans
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
i actually feel bad for Flowey on no mercy, given his true pacifist story
if Sans knew Flowey was bugging Papyrus, why didn't he intervene? laziness? the assumption that everything would be reset so it didn't matter?
idk, i mean i can buy that i guess, but Flowey's dangerous and Sans does care about Papyrus, so i feel like he'd want to put a stop to that
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead