My point isn't that Chara is entirely you, but that Chara is defined by you. Chara is your imprint, your shadow on the world.
as I have thought about Undertale, Chara's deliberately ambiguous "realness" in terms of their relationship to the narrative has gradually pushed them up the rankings of "things i love most about this game"
Chara was once within the narrative, but died, and now lives wholly in a space between the world of the game and the world of reality. A purgatory within the fourth wall, if you will, the same sort of place you fight Flowey/Asriel, who is also incidentally dead. Ish.
The Flowey/Asriel and Chara/Frisk relationships have obvious parallels and mirror one another. There are more things i have to say but i need to mull over them more so.
My point isn't that Chara is entirely you, but that Chara is defined by you. Chara is your imprint, your shadow on the world.
as I have thought about Undertale, Chara's deliberately ambiguous "realness" in terms of their relationship to the narrative has gradually pushed them up the rankings of "things i love most about this game"
Chara was once within the narrative, but died, and now lives wholly in a space between the world of the game and the world of reality. A purgatory within the fourth wall, if you will, the same sort of place you fight Flowey/Asriel, who is also incidentally dead. Ish.
The Flowey/Asriel and Chara/Frisk relationships have obvious parallels and mirror one another. There are more things i have to say but i need to mull over them more so.
Actually, to bud off this in another direction: One thing I love about this game is how the way you play it / possible multiple playthroughs changes what things mean/are.
Is Chara you? is Chara just a dead kid? are you the dead kid? Do Chara's plans represent your previous video game experiences, or are they literal? Unlike with a book or a movie, or most other video games, the narrative can be interacted with in multiple ways, and the parts shift and change into a series of distinct but related meanings/morals/stories depending on your approach.
What's interesting is that Undertale is doing a really damn good job at communicating a lot of these esoteric concepts of the audience/work relationship to a broad spectrum of people.
Plus, its overarching theme of "negativity and sadism are a means of emotionally protecting yourself from the hurt of actually giving a damn about people" is a very complex one and it handles it bombastically well, esp. considering it pretty much *states its theme outright*
And those multiple stories can interact to produce wholly new meanings.
For example, imagine someone does a neutral playthrough, figures shit out, does a pacifist playthrough, then, due to the fact that there are obvious hints that there is more to the story that you havent been let in on, the person does a no mercy run. The person learns what they wanted to know, but feels awful, so they try a pacifist run again, only to encounter the whole Chara now has Complete Control ending.
A narrative between the playthroughs has been constructed: For this person Undertale is a horror game about how the pursuit of knowledge that one is not meant to know can forever taint the mind. Undertale is now Lovecraft.
But of course, there are so many other ways to play, other ways to respond, other orders to tackle things, angles to obsess over.
It's emergent storytelling, which is unique to the medium of video games.
I think you might like Spec Ops: The Line. There are a few weird parallels between it and Undertale.
i know what emergent storytelling is, i have watched every episode of extra credits. My point was that I feel that the way that Undertale uses indie game-y meta-ness to create emergent storytelling between playthroughs as well as within them is very clever
ive looked at screencaps of spec ops the line and know what it has to say and am really not interested
It's emergent storytelling, which is unique to the medium of video games.
I think you might like Spec Ops: The Line. There are a few weird parallels between it and Undertale.
i know what emergent storytelling is, i have watched every episode of extra credits. My point was that I feel that the way that Undertale uses indie game-y meta-ness to create emergent storytelling between playthroughs as well as within them is very clever
this is actually the main reason that Undertale is the only video game I've ever found that I would say that I actually love as a piece of art as opposed to "I thought it was ok to distract myself for a while, as a commodity of enjoyment"
the other reasons are its incredible narrative economy within the gameplay itself, well thought out symbological structure, and my Weirdly Intense And Personal Asriel Feels.
Also, the way that the narrative builds out away from play itself and is personal to the person playing makes me much more interested with/willing to engage with more fandom-y stuff with Undertale than I am normally willing to put up with.
I've been following the Yume 2kki Project for almost four years now and I can't wait to see where that ends up, but that level of devotion to the game is really not for everybody.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
I'm watching a video of the No Mercy changes, and Flowey starts talking about how he and Chara are at least better than "those sickos that stand around and WATCH it happen...Those pathetic people that want to see it, but are too weak to do it themselves" and honestly I feel so attacked right now.
"Sets of numbers, lines of dialogue...I've seen them all."
I'm watching a video of the No Mercy changes, and Flowey starts talking about how he and Chara are at least better than "those sickos that stand around and WATCH it happen...Those pathetic people that want to see it, but are too weak to do it themselves" and honestly I feel so attacked right now.
"Sets of numbers, lines of dialogue...I've seen them all."
Considering the nature of Chara/Frisk, while it's mostly speculation, but there's a fair amount of it that suggests Chara's spirit is with Frisk. It would in that sense only add to signify the pacifist route as the "true route".
Considering the parallel that Chara/Asriel's combined death left Asriel thinking the whole only existed as "Kill or be Killed" whilst Chara would then aid Frisk with an outlook of "pacifist".
i tend to think of Chara as like a nasty psychological trap for the player who delves too far into the game, rather than something resolvable by a happy ending
e: i guess what inclines me towards the more negative view is the fact that even on the pacifist route, Chara is implied to be malicious, and the no mercy ending has a lasting effect that overwrites the pacifist ending, but the reverse is not the case
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
Chara's a silent player in a lot of Pacifist, but they do make an appearance in a phone call right after True Lab.
Yeah, Flowey does note that No Mercy Frisk is indistinguishable from Chara. Yes, Asriel wonders why he thought Pascifist Frisk was ever the same person as Chara. But both characters are present at every step of the way of both roads. Maybe the ends of both roads are one character subsuming the other entirely.
My point is, Chara's not the bad side any more than Frisk is the good side. They're both people who walk down the same roads together, and what route they take, what actions you choose, changes them both.
e: i guess what inclines me towards the more negative view is the fact that even on the pacifist route, Chara is implied to be malicious, and the no mercy ending has a lasting effect that overwrites the pacifist ending, but the reverse is not the case
Yeah, but that's because "you" chose it. Undertale remembers what you did. Every action has a consequence.
I'm leaning really hard on "the player is complicit" angle.
Chara's a silent player in a lot of Pacifist, but they do make an appearance in a phone call right after True Lab.
i thought that was just Flowey calling Frisk "Chara"?
also my interpretation is not that the player isn't complicit. The player invites Chara into the session, that's clearly not what Frisk wants (if you're not playing pacifist, is it even really Frisk?)
i feel like this is something the game doesn't spell out for you so multiple interpretations are possible, but i'm fairly confident in my interpretation and i think my reasons for holding it are sound
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
Oh you're right, they use the Fallen Human's name. And the "voiceclip" didn't sound like Flowey or Asriel, so I just assumed it was Chara.
I say "yes, Frisk is still there even on No Mercy," but I don't really have any evidence to support it. It's just something I feel.
Okay, here's the support for my argument: you do No Mercy, No Mercy again, then Pacifist. Chara could never fool everyone into thinking they were Frisk, so Frisk has to survive. It's a little shaky, because if everyone can be reset, Frisk can be reset too, and by that point, Chara's making the deal with you the player, so idk.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
By "silent player" I mean Frisk is the one telling Chara not to give up on game over screens, and Chara is the one providing 'Check' and item and environment descriptions.
the vines blocking off the elevator point to it being Flowey on the phone, i think
not conclusively, admittedly, but i took that to be the implication
i think what would sell me on Clock's interpretation is if completing the true pacifist route and then attempting a no mercy run had consequences for Chara. if Chara had learned something from Asriel and become a pacifist as a result, we might expect them to behave differently on a subsequent no mercy run, to question or outright discourage the player's actions
it's not a given, since resetting wipes memories, but Chara seems to be immune from that; they can remember you from previous playthroughs if you encounter them more than once, and they even imply that they're with you when you play other games, as well
as for Frisk's presence on no mercy, i am definitely sympathetic to that idea, like perhaps Frisk is being somehow possessed, but the fact that Frisk's name is only supplied to you once you've securely beaten a pacifist run makes me think that's the only canon route for Frisk
By "silent player" I mean Frisk is the one telling Chara not to give up on game over screens, and Chara is the one providing 'Check' and item and environment descriptions.
my view: Asriel is the one telling Chara not to give up, and Chara's item descriptions are only the ones written in red, rather than white
. . . though, against that, the in-fight descriptions are written in white, and 'in my way', 'looks like free EXP' and 'keep attacking. he can't dodge forever' are clearly not pacifist!Frisk
hm
e: but then, is 'you feel your sins crawling on your back' Chara? i really don't think so
if Chara had learned something from Asriel and become a pacifist as a result, we might expect them to behave differently on a subsequent no mercy run, to question or outright discourage the player's actions
After True Pacifist comes the True Reset, which does reset everything entirely, and is the only way to make a new game. Something that Asriel asks you not to do. Chara's not immune to that.
my view: Asriel is the one telling Chara not to give up, and Chara's item descriptions are only the ones written in red, rather than white
Asriel cheering you on is difficult, as Asriel's Flowey, and Asriel proper doesn't appear until True Pacifist, as you said. And to me, the descriptions aren't red because it's Chara, it's red because you soaked Chara in blood.
Good point on True Reset, but, even that doesn't reset *everything*, does it? It doesn't let you see Asriel in the ruins again, and it can't restore your soul if Chara took it.
And i meant to say that it's Flowey telling you not to give up, really, but i will note there are times when Undertale kinda messes with your perception of when stuff is happening. Namely in the 'name the fallen human' and 'you're fallen down, haven't you' parts. 'Chara! You can't give up! You have to stay determined!' was what Asriel said to Chara when Chara fell sick.
unrelated theory: on a pacifist/neutral run, it's seeing new sights and interacting with the characters that fills the player with the determination to progress
on a no mercy run, the player powers through motivated by sheer completionism, so 'Determination.' is all you need
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
It's weird but I feel I know Chara better than I know Frisk. And like, do we know who Frisk is? If the actions we take affects how Chara views his old world, how does that affect Frisk, who is seeing this world and its people for the first time?
Ultimately I guess my conclusion is still that Chara was a person who was kind sometimes and wicked at others, and I want to say that they're there at every point, so was Frisk, and so are you, no matter what happens, that little trio drives the game.
You may be right. Certainly i'd say that's true of any degree of neutral route, it's just the pacifist and no mercy routes i'm less sure about.
i want to say that Frisk is the one who makes friends and shows mercy, and that the various ACT menu options clue us in to the kind of person they are. Someone playful but sincere, who takes big risks but always tries to do the right thing. But that's just my interpretation.
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as I have thought about Undertale, Chara's deliberately ambiguous "realness" in terms of their relationship to the narrative has gradually pushed them up the rankings of "things i love most about this game"
Plus, its overarching theme of "negativity and sadism are a means of emotionally protecting yourself from the hurt of actually giving a damn about people" is a very complex one and it handles it bombastically well, esp. considering it pretty much *states its theme outright*
I think you might like Spec Ops: The Line. There are a few weird parallels between it and Undertale.
On the whole I think I've been influenced by, uh, Film Crit Hulk a lot more
I feel like it has a good chance of digging into Naney's, though.
http://virderia.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-47.html#more
maybe
having said which, you might be right, that is an interesting theory
it's not how i saw it though, i feel like Chara's role in pacifist is mostly confined to backstory
i tend to think of Chara as like a nasty psychological trap for the player who delves too far into the game, rather than something resolvable by a happy ending
e: i guess what inclines me towards the more negative view is the fact that even on the pacifist route, Chara is implied to be malicious, and the no mercy ending has a lasting effect that overwrites the pacifist ending, but the reverse is not the case
also my interpretation is not that the player isn't complicit. The player invites Chara into the session, that's clearly not what Frisk wants (if you're not playing pacifist, is it even really Frisk?)
not conclusively, admittedly, but i took that to be the implication
i think what would sell me on Clock's interpretation is if completing the true pacifist route and then attempting a no mercy run had consequences for Chara. if Chara had learned something from Asriel and become a pacifist as a result, we might expect them to behave differently on a subsequent no mercy run, to question or outright discourage the player's actions
it's not a given, since resetting wipes memories, but Chara seems to be immune from that; they can remember you from previous playthroughs if you encounter them more than once, and they even imply that they're with you when you play other games, as well
as for Frisk's presence on no mercy, i am definitely sympathetic to that idea, like perhaps Frisk is being somehow possessed, but the fact that Frisk's name is only supplied to you once you've securely beaten a pacifist run makes me think that's the only canon route for Frisk
hm
e: but then, is 'you feel your sins crawling on your back' Chara? i really don't think so
Good point on True Reset, but, even that doesn't reset *everything*, does it? It doesn't let you see Asriel in the ruins again, and it can't restore your soul if Chara took it.
And i meant to say that it's Flowey telling you not to give up, really, but i will note there are times when Undertale kinda messes with your perception of when stuff is happening. Namely in the 'name the fallen human' and 'you're fallen down, haven't you' parts. 'Chara! You can't give up! You have to stay determined!' was what Asriel said to Chara when Chara fell sick.
on a no mercy run, the player powers through motivated by sheer completionism, so 'Determination.' is all you need
i want to say that Frisk is the one who makes friends and shows mercy, and that the various ACT menu options clue us in to the kind of person they are. Someone playful but sincere, who takes big risks but always tries to do the right thing. But that's just my interpretation.