i'm not big on the fan battles. There's also the thing about (iirc) Papyrus coming back as some kind of badass who 'no longer believes in you' and wrecking you for killing Sans. Like . . . they're creative, but i prefer the characterization on the actual genocide route.
Like, Sans. Sans is not a gigantic horrifying monster. Flowey's that, in the neutral ending. Asriel is that when he goes full power. Sans is lazy, actually pretty weak, probably depressed, and he hates you for killing his brother. He's certainly not the heroic type, but he knows that he has to fight you because you cannot be allowed to finish the genocide route. And he also happens to be very fast, and very angry, and to have a wicked sense of humour.
And Papyrus . . . Papyrus is a sweetheart. Even if you kill him, he's shocked, but he still believes you can redeem yourself. That's just the kind of person he is.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
It's pretty cool, but it's not doing it for me, because while some things are very Sans (pointing at the rows of bones with his fingers, taking the option buttons, breaking), other things are very much not Sans (becoming giant, shooting lasers from his mouth).
Like, Sans. Sans is not a gigantic horrifying monster. Flowey's that, in the neutral ending. Asriel is that when he goes full power. Sans is lazy, actually pretty weak, probably depressed, and he hates you for killing his brother. He's certainly not the heroic type, but he knows that he has to fight you because you cannot be allowed to finish the genocide route. And he also happens to be very fast, and very angry, and to have a wicked sense of humour.
This is what I meant by wanting to like them. It's interesting to see them take cues from other dramatic bosses, but this isn't Sans and I can't see it being Sans in any iteration of the timelines. Although I wouldn't call him actually pretty weak but that borders on pedantry. None of this has the same gravitas of duty that Genocide!Sans has.
And Papyrus . . . Papyrus is a sweetheart. Even if you kill him, he's shocked, but he still believes you can redeem yourself. That's just the kind of person he is.
It's pretty cool, but it's not doing it for me, because while some things are very Sans (pointing at the rows of bones with his fingers, taking the option buttons, breaking)
Yeah, I like how it bothers to stay in line with moving your boundaries or taking them away, just as happened during Asriel with the moving box sizes and fuckoff lasers (I forget what it's caller, Hyper Goner?). That's what I stick around for.
I dunno about Papyrus, really. Remember, in Papyrus ending, Sans refuses to tell him the truth about what you did. I feel like that implies that if Papyrus did know you murdered literally everyone, he'd react a little differently than on the genocide route.
^ Good point. We don't know what he'd be like if pushed. But, i don't know. i understand people wanting him to get some kind of heroic last stand but i just don't see it.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
I guess Undyne plays the piano, because the tune that plays when you're standing in front of her house for the date stops when Papyrus knocks on her door.
more kinda disjointed ramblings about Chara, themes and endings (let me know if this is at all irritating, please let me know)
i was thinking, obviously Chara isn't just "you". Like that post Mach linked pointed out, they do have a defined personality, likes and dislikes, independent of the player - the most innocuous case in point being their fondness for chocolate. They also have a backstory and a set of motivations which are unlikely to be the same as the player's. It's not a situation like with (no mercy) Flowey, where the game tries to anticipate your response to the game and spit it back in your face to mess with you.
But Chara is a constant presence on the no mercy route. They actually identify themselves with the feeling you get every time your EXP or LV increases. And they persist beyond the destruction of the entire game world, and invite you to 'move on to the next world' with them. It's creepy, but in a slightly naff creepypasta kinda way that's going to be hit-and-miss depending on how the player feels about it. So i think it's more interesting to read it as symbolic, rather than as horror.
From a symbolic standpoint, i think Chara is a power fantasy, the kind of dominance fantasy video games usually indulge - whether it's killing enemies to level up, or more abstractly, doing horrible things for the sake of completionism just to see all the content (also a key theme in Toby's earlier Earthbound Halloween Hack). This is a subject that comes up a lot on the Extra Credits videos, as being the kind of fantasy that action and roleplaying games most often attempt to engage, at least outside the horror genre.
And that got me thinking, Undertale doesn't really cater to that kind of fantasy the way most games do. It'll let you indulge it for a little while, but it always undercuts it. Killing and levelling indulges it, but then you learn what EXP and LV stand for. Fighting Flowey indulges it (and is the closest you ever get to it on a pacifist-ready playthrough), but even then, you're winning only by calling for help repeatedly; actually fighting Flowey proves ultimately pointless as he can simply reload his save and one shot you as many times as he likes. And even with the help of the souls, the neutral ending you get is a pretty bittersweet one.
The closest you get to a sustained power/dominance fantasy in Undertale is clearly a no mercy run, but that can only end one of 3 ways: you spare someone and leave the route, you tire of the route and reset, or you meet Chara. The first is clearly the most satisfying and dignified choice, even if it happens so late in the game that you get dunked on for it - humiliating, but probably less so than just giving up out of frustration. And Chara is the ultimate removal of agency, the annihilation of any sense that the player was in control. You can accept that the world is gone, or you can give them your soul.
Or you can delete your file and start over. Clever. Verrrryyy clever.
But i do think this is interesting, the way Undertale outright refuses to entertain the power/dominance fantasies that games in the action/RPG genre usually indulge, and this is clearly a theme that interests Toby a lot.
it does? i assume you're not referring to CGI Toriel, so i'm guessing i missed something?
and, i wasn't really arguing against what you'd said, but, to my mind, Chara is Chara. You can't exert any control over them, beyond choosing how far you want to invite them into your playthrough.
Comments
the LPer's reaction at 4:24 is the best
Like, Sans. Sans is not a gigantic horrifying monster. Flowey's that, in the neutral ending. Asriel is that when he goes full power. Sans is lazy, actually pretty weak, probably depressed, and he hates you for killing his brother. He's certainly not the heroic type, but he knows that he has to fight you because you cannot be allowed to finish the genocide route. And he also happens to be very fast, and very angry, and to have a wicked sense of humour.
And Papyrus . . . Papyrus is a sweetheart. Even if you kill him, he's shocked, but he still believes you can redeem yourself. That's just the kind of person he is.
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
^ Good point. We don't know what he'd be like if pushed. But, i don't know. i understand people wanting him to get some kind of heroic last stand but i just don't see it.
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
and it makes sense, because he knows killing you isn't enough. His whole aim is to frustrate you to the point where you just give up.
asssss
badass is a word that i still occasionally use even though i know it's a silly word that irritates people
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
I need to watch Phantom Blood again.
i mean the dog is Toby
the dog winds up Toriel, Flowey and Papyrus during sillier scenes, that's one thing
but that late into a no mercy route, Sans is basically Toby's avenging angel
which makes me think that if the dog were to show up he'd be antagonizing the player, not Sans
i was thinking, obviously Chara isn't just "you". Like that post Mach linked pointed out, they do have a defined personality, likes and dislikes, independent of the player - the most innocuous case in point being their fondness for chocolate. They also have a backstory and a set of motivations which are unlikely to be the same as the player's. It's not a situation like with (no mercy) Flowey, where the game tries to anticipate your response to the game and spit it back in your face to mess with you.
But Chara is a constant presence on the no mercy route. They actually identify themselves with the feeling you get every time your EXP or LV increases. And they persist beyond the destruction of the entire game world, and invite you to 'move on to the next world' with them. It's creepy, but in a slightly naff creepypasta kinda way that's going to be hit-and-miss depending on how the player feels about it. So i think it's more interesting to read it as symbolic, rather than as horror.
From a symbolic standpoint, i think Chara is a power fantasy, the kind of dominance fantasy video games usually indulge - whether it's killing enemies to level up, or more abstractly, doing horrible things for the sake of completionism just to see all the content (also a key theme in Toby's earlier Earthbound Halloween Hack). This is a subject that comes up a lot on the Extra Credits videos, as being the kind of fantasy that action and roleplaying games most often attempt to engage, at least outside the horror genre.
And that got me thinking, Undertale doesn't really cater to that kind of fantasy the way most games do. It'll let you indulge it for a little while, but it always undercuts it. Killing and levelling indulges it, but then you learn what EXP and LV stand for. Fighting Flowey indulges it (and is the closest you ever get to it on a pacifist-ready playthrough), but even then, you're winning only by calling for help repeatedly; actually fighting Flowey proves ultimately pointless as he can simply reload his save and one shot you as many times as he likes. And even with the help of the souls, the neutral ending you get is a pretty bittersweet one.
The closest you get to a sustained power/dominance fantasy in Undertale is clearly a no mercy run, but that can only end one of 3 ways: you spare someone and leave the route, you tire of the route and reset, or you meet Chara. The first is clearly the most satisfying and dignified choice, even if it happens so late in the game that you get dunked on for it - humiliating, but probably less so than just giving up out of frustration. And Chara is the ultimate removal of agency, the annihilation of any sense that the player was in control. You can accept that the world is gone, or you can give them your soul.
Or you can delete your file and start over. Clever. Verrrryyy clever.
But i do think this is interesting, the way Undertale outright refuses to entertain the power/dominance fantasies that games in the action/RPG genre usually indulge, and this is clearly a theme that interests Toby a lot.
and, i wasn't really arguing against what you'd said, but, to my mind, Chara is Chara. You can't exert any control over them, beyond choosing how far you want to invite them into your playthrough.
It's a secret boss. Wander around the room near Snowdin with the mushrooms and the locked door (near the Gyftrot encounter) for a bit, it appears.
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead