Thought that just popped into my head: Even when you're a genocidal monster that Undyne considers to have no chance of redemption, her honour still dictates that she give you a weapon to fight her with.
Undertale teaches us something important. It doesn't teach us that people like Flowey exist - because we know that already. It teaches us that people like Flowey can be defeated, that their viewpoint on life is far from absolute, and that they can't be wicked forever without meeting consequences sooner or later.
IMO, Frisk is the best Messiah figure in all of fiction. Because Frisk, unlike runner-up Aang, is given actual agency. Aang does resort to violence as a matter of defense, naturally, and does so non-lethally. He sticks to this belief throughout the series and is rewarded for it by giving him a tool with which to serve his convictions.
Frisk however is never shown to have any sense of ideology, or indeed, history beyond what the player ascribes to them until they offer their name at the end of the True Pacifist route. And based on the fact that Frisk only reveals their name at the end of that route this reveals that Frisk, without Chara's influence, would be a gentle pacifist. But it's Chara themselves that makes this so significant. Chara is literally the temptation for the player to do violence to the people of the game world, and by proxy, the temptation for Frisk to do violence.
Aang was raised in a monastery and taught from day one that every living thing deserves life and happiness. Nobody ever tries to tempt Aang to violence or evil except when they feel it is necessary for the greater good. He prevails only over pragmatism.
Frisk is constantly confronted with the temptation to commit violent acts, but through their determination, they are permitted to prevail and turn the other cheek. They are not explicitly tempted by the characters, but by a force beyond their control. Chara. The fact that this is a video game, and that in video games, the players kill the environment. PvE. A simple, unspoken fact of the medium. It's you against the world.
Frisk defies that temptation and chooses mercy over violence even though the very logic of their existence implicitly permits and encourages violence. Frisk is the best Messiah Archetype ever.
i guess i can wholeheartedly get behind the part about Flowey's viewpoint being far from absolute, although i wouldn't have thought it was the most interesting thing about the game
with that in mind he can be 'defeated' by showing him mercy (killing him on a hitherto pacifist run causes him to smile creepily and say he knew you had it in you, which is hardly a victory)
i think it's kinda interesting how at the start when he's telling you about the Underground, he then says "in this world, it's kill or be killed"
idk about anyone else but at the time i took that as a statement about the Underground, which the rest of the game then pretty soundly disabused me of (i think it was around Snowdin that i became convinced Flowey was full of it, prior to that i thought maybe i'd just been sheltered by Toriel and the rest of the Underground would be horrible, but not so)
when he reiterates it during the neutral/pacifist ending, it registers quite differently; it's evident he's talking about his own view on life in general, so what it ultimately conveys is merely how messed up he is
Comments
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
You know who else has fangs? Muffet and Undyne.
QED
i didn't get the same thing out of it that you did, but i can see where you got that from
with that in mind he can be 'defeated' by showing him mercy (killing him on a hitherto pacifist run causes him to smile creepily and say he knew you had it in you, which is hardly a victory)
i think it's kinda interesting how at the start when he's telling you about the Underground, he then says "in this world, it's kill or be killed"
idk about anyone else but at the time i took that as a statement about the Underground, which the rest of the game then pretty soundly disabused me of (i think it was around Snowdin that i became convinced Flowey was full of it, prior to that i thought maybe i'd just been sheltered by Toriel and the rest of the Underground would be horrible, but not so)
when he reiterates it during the neutral/pacifist ending, it registers quite differently; it's evident he's talking about his own view on life in general, so what it ultimately conveys is merely how messed up he is
but he had trouble on Flowey because he wasn't sure it was ok to hit the FIGHT button after what happened the last time
am impressed
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead