I was naive about Windows Product Activation

edited 2015-08-02 19:03:54 in General
Before Windows XP, installing a new copy of Windows was simple. You had a disc, and you had a product key you entered in the installer. Mildly inconvenient, but tolerable.

But Microsoft didn't like that, because it let you commit the heinous crime of buying one Windows disc and installing it on multiple computers! So with Windows XP they introduced "Product Activation", where your license key would be tied with a profile of your computer hardware and you would have to "activate" your product with Microsoft's servers to be able to use it.

Here's where the naivete comes in: at the time I thought "such a blatantly consumer-unfriendly 'feature' can't last. Once Microsoft realizes that people are just installing a crack to get around this, they'll backtrack for sure."

But that didn't happen, becuase people actually went along with it. To this day I see people willing to jump through hoops to ensure that their freshly installed Windows 10 system will "activate" correctly instead of just installing a crack.

News flash: If you pay for a product, you are entitled to use it. Microsoft, despite what they want you to believe, does not get to dictate what is and is not an acceptable way to use something you paid for. If you have a legitimate copy of Windows, you shouldn't feel like you need to prove it to Microsoft's satisfaction just to use your PC. What Microsoft does with "product activation" is essentially the same as those stores that ask you to show your receipt even when there's no reason to suspect you're shoplifting. Hint: I don't shop at stores like that anymore.
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Comments

  • Touch the cow. Do it now.
    Most people wouldn't know how to get a crack.

    I certainly don't
  • kill living beings
    you generally don't buy software. you buy a license to use software. this is one of many reasons software legalities are broken.
  • I understand and even agree with your argument but it would probably not hold up in court.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022

    you generally don't buy software. you buy a license to use software. this is one of many reasons software legalities are broken.

    See, this is the root of the problem, isn't it? People are all too willing to accept the "I'm buying a license to use this software" and not "I'm buying this physical disk and so I can do whatever I want with the bits it happens to contain."

    If people had insisted on the latter when companies first started trying to push the former we wouldn't be in this mess.
  • well the thing is, "people" don't write laws, the legislative branch does.

    And it's not hard to buy politicians.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022

    well the thing is, "people" don't write laws, the legislative branch does.


    And it's not hard to buy politicians.
    But there isn't an actual law that says "the normal rules of buying and selling things don't apply to software", that's something software companies came up with because it benefits them to insist that you can only install that copy of Windows on one computer without paying for more "licenses".

    If people had insisted that buying software needs to work the same way as, say, buying a new TV, we could have forced the issue.

    When consumers accepted the "you're buying a license only" narrative, we essentially gave up everything by agreeing to play by the software developers' rules.
  • edited 2015-08-02 20:06:40
    kill living beings

    well the thing is, "people" don't write laws, the legislative branch does.


    And it's not hard to buy politicians.
    this isn't really a legal matter. microsoft advertises and sells licenses to use software. microsoft is therefore entitled to do this ridiculous shit. it's all up front, normal for usage contracts, which you don't actually want to legislate away because they're plenty useful in more reasonable domains. as central says the issue is that people think of licensed use as a reasonable model for software (or don't think of it at all, or don't realize the consequences).

    you generally don't buy software. you buy a license to use software. this is one of many reasons software legalities are broken.

    See, this is the root of the problem, isn't it? People are all too willing to accept the "I'm buying a license to use this software" and not "I'm buying this physical disk and so I can do whatever I want with the bits it happens to contain."

    If people had insisted on the latter when companies first started trying to push the former we wouldn't be in this mess.
    for once in my life (okay, no, i'm usually an asshole) i'm going to be an asshole programmer and say that well, i did decide not to accept that, and so i use linux.

    selling information is pretty tricky. like a lot of programmers i feel that intellectual property laws are a bad idea when the internet exists, but without IP laws Microsoft and others would have to change their business models a whole lot - providing services and tech help essentially - which is pretty hard and practically speaking probably not as profitable.
  • well the thing is, "people" don't write laws, the legislative branch does.


    And it's not hard to buy politicians.
    But there isn't an actual law that says "the normal rules of buying and selling things don't apply to software", that's something software companies came up with because it benefits them to insist that you can only install that copy of Windows on one computer without paying for more "licenses".

    If people had insisted that buying software needs to work the same way as, say, buying a new TV, we could have forced the issue.

    When consumers accepted the "you're buying a license only" narrative, we essentially gave up everything by agreeing to play by the software developers' rules.
    the thing is you can't just "insist" on stuff.

    There is no law saying that the normal rules of buying and selling don't apply but there is also not one saying that they do, and you'd need the latter for this to work, because "insisting" on its own does nothing.

    As for why such a law is unlikely to ever be made, see my previous post.
  • I have cut a caper with the dancing mad god
    If I buy a book, I don't own the story inside. I can't claim it's mine. I can't print a bunch of copies to sell them for my own profit. These are good things that protect the author. Copyright laws tend to go overboard (WAY overboard, to be honest, and I am overall against most of our copyright legislation currently), but the underlying idea is not a bad thing. 
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022

    If I buy a book, I don't own the story inside. I can't claim it's mine. I can't print a bunch of copies to sell them for my own profit. These are good things that protect the author. Copyright laws tend to go overboard (WAY overboard, to be honest, and I am overall against most of our copyright legislation currently), but the underlying idea is not a bad thing. 

    See, the way I see it, software licensing is more equivalent to the author of the book saying "you bought this book, but I own the story inside, so I get to dictate the terms of where, when, and how you read this book."

    Microsoft may own the copyright on the software but I own the physical disk, so I should get to use it as I see fit the same way I could use a printed book as I see fit. I don't see why the rules should be different for software than for any other intellectual property.
  • Touch the cow. Do it now.
    If you take that physical disk and install it on multiple computers, is that really different from taking a book and making copies of it?
  • kill living beings
    well, really, with the book it's also illegal just to make copies of it, even if you don't sell them. this just doesn't come up because that's pretty hard to do. with software it is the opposite of hard.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    But I'm not talking about copying, I'm talking about the product activation thing.

    It's like this:

    You buy a book. The book has a lock on it keeping you from opening it. The instructions say "To read this book, send us a copy of your receipt to prove you purchased it legimately, and we will send you the key."

    At this point, since the seller already has my money, I think I would be justified in taking a bolt cutter and just cutting off the lock.

    This is what I'm saying about Windows. As long as I've purchased it legitimately, I shouldn't be obligated to prove to Microsoft's satisfaction that I purchased it legitmately.
  • Touch the cow. Do it now.

    You buy a book. The book has a lock on it keeping you from opening it. The instructions say "To read this book, send us a copy of your receipt to prove you purchased it legimately, and we will send you the key."

    Please don't give them ideas
  • edited 2015-08-02 20:25:33
    kill living beings
    in this metaphor, the author believes, not unreasonably, that without the lock people would copy their book a million times, and people getting free copies (and let's be real: we'd all use free Windows) would greatly reduce their sales to the point that the author would no longer have a livelihood.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022

    in this metaphor, the author believes, not unreasonably, that without the lock people would copy their book a million times, and people getting free copies (and let's be real: we'd all use free Windows) would greatly reduce their sales to the point that the author would no longer have a livelihood.

    How is that the consumer's problem, though? Why should I have an obligation to help Microsoft maintain their business model, especially when I feel it to be unnecessarily greedy?
  • most people want to use windows and they dont really care about putting numbers in or shit
  • To me there is non-zero, positive value in the existence of a way to stick 3.1, 3.11, 95, 98, XP, 7, or 8.1 onto a computer or virtual machine, without having to deal with Microsoft.

    It would be nice to extend this to Win10.
  • actually

    i thought calling the hotline and reading off my serial number to the machine and then having a new one read back to me was really fun

    it was my favorite part of the installation process by far
  • kill living beings

    in this metaphor, the author believes, not unreasonably, that without the lock people would copy their book a million times, and people getting free copies (and let's be real: we'd all use free Windows) would greatly reduce their sales to the point that the author would no longer have a livelihood.

    How is that the consumer's problem, though? Why should I have an obligation to help Microsoft maintain their business model, especially when I feel it to be unnecessarily greedy?
    that was intended to explain why they do it, not why you should go along with it, which, as i previously said, you shouldn't

    the explanation from the consumer's POV would be to believe the author's/etc assertion that without the lock they would be unable to make enough money to support themselves. beyond the moral aspect, this would mean the only authors are people with money from elsewhere, and they wouldn't really have any obligation to write good books since they're not paid for that, and that all would be bad for the reading consumer since that's shitty books.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    naney said:

    actually


    i thought calling the hotline and reading off my serial number to the machine and then having a new one read back to me was really fun

    it was my favorite part of the installation process by far
    Wait you did phone activation? Huh, I've never had to do that before.
  • I did it whilst reinstalling windows 8, there was some issue with 8 that was stopping me from installing 10 so i did a fresh install
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    naney said:

    I did it whilst reinstalling windows 8, there was some issue with 8 that was stopping me from installing 10 so i did a fresh install

    See, to me that's another example of Microsoft forcing legitimate customers to jump through hoops

    Ideally, since they're offering 10 as a free upgrade, you should just be able to wipe your 8 installation and do a clean install of 10

    But because of the activation process it won't work unless you install 8 first and then upgrade it to 10...why?
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    So, can someone explain to me the difference between these two scenarios:

    1. I buy a printed book. I read it and pass it around to my friends, allowing multiple people to read it.

    2. I buy a Windows DVD. I use it to install Windows on multiple computers.

    Because if the author of the book said "you are not buying a physical book, you are buying my persmission to read the story contained within, and each person who does so much pay me separately", we would laugh at say "it doesn't work that way, mate." But when Microsoft says the equivalent with the Windows DVD I'm expected to see it as reasonable.
  • I have cut a caper with the dancing mad god
    In that scenario, only one person is able to use the book at a time. With software, you would all be using it simultaneously. The actual analog would be letting someone borrow your laptop you installed Windows on. 
  • For once, or maybe twice, I was in my prime.

    So, can someone explain to me the difference between these two scenarios:


    1. I buy a printed book. I read it and pass it around to my friends, allowing multiple people to read it.

    2. I buy a Windows DVD. I use it to install Windows on multiple computers.

    There only remains one copy of the book. To make the situation truly analogous, you'd have to uninstall Windows from your computer before installing it on a new computer.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    But there's still only one DVD. And because the DVD is what I paid for, I get to use it however I want.

    Microsoft's assertion is that they, after selling you a DVD, are allowed to dictate how and when you may use that DVD to install Windows. My assertion is that the law doesn't support that and it's only considered enforceable because people commonly accept it as such.
  • Touch the cow. Do it now.
    I suppose the problem with this analogy is that you can't "install" a book.
  • I have cut a caper with the dancing mad god
    It's not the DVD that is important, but the contents. Just as you can't do whatever you want with the contents of a book (the words), you can't do whatever you want with the contents of the DVD.
  • I suppose the problem with this analogy is that you can't "install" a book.

    /me downloads a car
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    There is one thing I think we can all agree on, though:

    The Windows 8-era shit of selling PCs with Windows preloaded but charging people for Windows install disks when they needed to reinstall the operating system was a low blow and Microsoft should feel ashamed.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    Thankfully they seem to have averted this with 10 by making an ISO file easy to legitimately download and burn
  • yeah but that's because Windows 10 is an OS-sized data collector that they use to show you ads.

    So it's not really much better.
  • yeah but that's because Windows 10 is an OS-sized data collector that they use to show you ads.


    So it's not really much better.
    So basically Win10 is MS really trying to turn the PC into a place for app microtransactions?
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022

    yeah but that's because Windows 10 is an OS-sized data collector that they use to show you ads.


    So it's not really much better.
    if you're that paranoid you can just turn all that crap off in the settings

    it's arguably better than a lot of mobile operating systems in that regard
  • well the thing is, "people" don't write laws, the legislative branch does.


    And it's not hard to buy politicians.
    It's easier to buy politicians than it is to buy windows products.

  • edited 2015-08-03 00:04:10

    well the thing is, "people" don't write laws, the legislative branch does.


    And it's not hard to buy politicians.
    It's easier to buy politicians than it is to buy windows products.

    May I share that quote?
  • edited 2015-08-03 00:36:39
    imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    i'm with CA here, mostly

    there's nothing stopping you copying passages from or even photocopying entire books

    i can see Microsoft's perspective on this but i don't see why anyone should feel obligated to put up with it when Windows makes stuff difficult

    (i suspect the reason most people do has more to do with laziness than principle, though)
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    I'm kinda conflating two things here, which I think is why my argument isn't very clear.

    One is that I find it kind of ridiculous that Microsoft wants $120 or so for every new installation of Windows. If I have multiple computers to install on, you ought to at least give me a package deal.

    The second issue, and the one that prompted me to make the thread, is that I dislike when anti-piracy measures cause grief for legitimate customers...especially when those same measures (like Windows Activation) have done little to curb actual piracy.
  • edited 2015-08-03 01:08:30
    kill living beings
    Tachyon said:

    there's nothing stopping you copying passages from or even photocopying entire books

    It's hard!

    i say this as someone who pirates books all the time!
  • Sup bitches, witches, Haters, and trolls.
    photocopying books is really annoying because you have to turn the pages

    source: i scanned in a 30-page math article once
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch

    The second issue, and the one that prompted me to make the thread, is that I dislike when anti-piracy measures cause grief for legitimate customers...especially when those same measures (like Windows Activation) have done little to curb actual piracy.

    this is my biggest problem with anti-piracy measures
  • Yeah, if I ever need to get any given Windows OS installed on any given machine that it wasn't originally on, I'm going to just download a cracked version from somewhere.

    So far I've never needed to do so but the possibility remains.
  • edited 2015-08-03 16:44:45
    ...And even when your hope is gone
    move along, move along, just to make it through
    (2015 self)
    If you pay for a product, you are not entitled to use it.

    Example:  Machine guns.

    Also, books are randfathered in by virtue of being sacred and holy things that justify humanity's existence and are unimpeachably perfect.
  • ...And even when your hope is gone
    move along, move along, just to make it through
    (2015 self)
    Tachyon said:

    The second issue, and the one that prompted me to make the thread, is that I dislike when anti-piracy measures cause grief for legitimate customers...especially when those same measures (like Windows Activation) have done little to curb actual piracy.

    this is my biggest problem with anti-piracy measures

  • edited 2015-08-03 16:45:52
    ...And even when your hope is gone
    move along, move along, just to make it through
    (2015 self)
    Triplepost.

    You're going to Rozheck for book-theft, Klino.

    It is very fiery and there is no chairs so you have to stand up all of the time.
  • kill living beings
    libraries are even worse. you just TAKE the books! how is THAT legal
  • ...And even when your hope is gone
    move along, move along, just to make it through
    (2015 self)
    LIbraries are paid for by taxation.

    Also, libraries are also unassailable and perfect in my imagination.

    As the great philosopher Calvin once said, I must obey the inscrutable exhortations of my soul.
  • Aliroz said:

    randfathered in

    This is a typo with a lot of potential.

    Like after the glorious Libertarian upheaval where everyone gets guns and animals inexplicably start talking, libraries will still exist (despite no one paying any taxes) because of the randfather clause.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    They'll just charge for admission the way 900 numbers charge for access :/
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