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The more useful you are, the lower your status

MissUtilisMissUtilis
in Talk
This is a core tenet of seemingly every large society ever, and it's never made any sense to me

Comments

  • TachyonTachyon
    imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    experts and experienced professionals are useful, and tend to be valued for that usefulness

    that's the only possible exception that springs to mind here though

    if you're at the top you get lazy
  • Obā-sanObā-san

    useful
  • OdradekOdradek
    My dreams exceed my real life
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_occupations
  • Obā-sanObā-san

    #occupyshi
  • Obā-sanObā-san

    counterpoint: i am mostly useless and am the most important person in the world
  • Section42LSection42L
    We can do anything if we do it together.
    TIL Naney is Zaphod Beeblebrox.
  • One-Winged EagleOne-Winged Eagle
    Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    I have no idea what you're talking about.
  • Imipolex GImipolex G
    Touch the cow. Do it now.
    at the bottom of society you've got workers and manual laborers and those types, who actually DO stuff and keep society running.

    at the top you've got bazillionaire CEOs who don't do shit other than ruin our favorite cartoons.
  • One-Winged EagleOne-Winged Eagle
    edited 2015-02-09 02:31:01
    Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    Well, yes. That's what capitalism does for you.

    But "the more useful you are, the lower your status" statement isn't actually true. There are classes of people with very specialized, very useful skills, who are also very highly valued by society. Your doctors, architects, and so on. Think about it for a moment.
  • TachyonTachyon
    imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    That's sort of what i was trying to get at.

    But then, a society where the only work that got done was specialized, skilled work would fall apart anyway.

    And on the other hand we have politicians who will dismiss the expertise of experienced professionals whenever it suits them.
  • One-Winged EagleOne-Winged Eagle
    Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    I don't actually know what the difference between "specialized work" and "skilled work" is.

    Do we actually value politicians, or are we just forced to tolerate them because they are part of the existing power structure that we can't get into?
  • TachyonTachyon
    imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    No, i meant specialized work that is skilled, i wasn't making a distinction between the two.

    i don't really value politicians but they have money and status so i guess somebody must value them?
  • One-Winged EagleOne-Winged Eagle
    Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    That's exactly it, though. Value is disproportionate to what they actually have.
  • CorvinaCorvina
    Vampire Lady of Corvidia

    (The other Jane)
    I could go into this conversation, but it would require extensive quoting of Capital, and I don't think people want to hear that.


    (Also, I have tried to rest my very political mind for a while)
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    FYI, if you were to remove all the politicians in the world from existence, others would just take their place spontaneously. Politics is borne out of a desire to influence events greater than oneself, by organizing other people to join oneself in supporting that objective. This is incidentally the source for a lot of these sorts of leadership roles.
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    re rank and usefulness:

    Do note that there are also some costs associated with rank. For example, higher expectations placed on oneself by others.
  • One-Winged EagleOne-Winged Eagle
    Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    It doesn't seem like anyone lives up to those expectations, though.
  • One-Winged EagleOne-Winged Eagle
    Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    This thread has never made sense to me.
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    Doesn't mean they aren't stressful, though.
  • One-Winged EagleOne-Winged Eagle
    Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    I don't see how that's relevant to this topic.
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    edited 2015-02-09 16:36:55
    Some people who do useful things choose not to increase their rank so as to avoid the increased stress that a higher rank might bring them.
  • TanyaTanya
    Pizza Dog
    This thread is something of an exaggeration. 

    but it has to be said that some people makes millions of dollars more than some people, and it's startling to think they're doing a million times worth more work. 
  • One-Winged EagleOne-Winged Eagle
    Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    So? What good is power if you won't use it?

    And ultimately, doesn't it decrease their overall usefulness?
  • TanyaTanya
    edited 2015-02-09 16:42:38
    Pizza Dog
    Also, there's school, wherein to learn the skills and tool sets to make money is barred.... by a barrier of money.

    People with money will always have easier access to making more money, and people with no money have to struggle with what money they have to try and make more money and simultaneously live.
  • One-Winged EagleOne-Winged Eagle
    Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    Sure, society stratification is blatantly unfair and changing your lot is all but impossible to some.

    But it just doesn't work in a simple, reductionist method where the people with the "least use" are the most valued and the people with the "most use" are the least valued, because then we'd actually just idolize murderers and arsonists and all builders, carers, and teachers would comprise our untouchable castes.

    Because I can't think of anybody with "less use" than the people who act to eliminate such things.
  • TachyonTachyon
    imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    i kind of doubt anyone was trying to suggest that uselessness is valued in and of itself, only that there are people who don't do a lot who get a lot more money and respect than the people without whom society would fall apart.
  • TachyonTachyon
    imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    glennmagusharvey said:

    Politics is borne out of a desire to influence events greater than oneself, by organizing other people to join oneself in supporting that objective.

    In theory; in practice becoming a politician is a lucrative career path that's generally open to a privileged few, and so politics as it stands is rife with short-termism, mudslinging and corruption and not particularly concerned with the running of the country.
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    That's its source.  The path from the source to the result is, of course, fraught with lots of unsightly details.  Sometimes the result can be quite different from what the source imagined.
  • One-Winged EagleOne-Winged Eagle
    Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    Justifying intention gets us nowhere. In fact, I will now disregard all mentions of intention.
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