Socialism!

edited 2014-07-19 03:34:26 in General
idk there is a non-1 amount of socialists here, so why not.

I'm a pretty bad socialist, so I'm still learning how to properly rally my fellow workers.

Smash the system and all that.
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  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    I am, theoretically speaking, not the most rigorous socialist, but taking after the right-wing economist Hayek I believe that observation is more important than ideology in economics, and insofar as I can see capitalism in its modern form really has not worked out, and authoritarian and conservative social and civil systems in particular are just bad news. I have also observed that while people left to their own devices can be dicks, most people are reasonably kind at heart, if not so aware of how to do the right thing.

    Hence, I am a libertarian socialist, which is a fancy way of saying that I am basically an anarchist that chickens out at the "anarchy" part.
  • Doesn't Libertarianism imply belief in Laissez Faire economics?
  • Basically my own "Socialism" simply boils down to a belief that the state should do a lot more (and should in turn simply be run better, but that is another issue).

    Namely, I think the state should entirely control all industries that are essential to the health and wellbeing of its citizens. It is ludicrous to me that for example medicine is, by and large, a private field. Similarly I don't think what is taught in schools should be up for debate, a standardized national curriculum should exist that is based on sound science and a reasoned, balanced view of history, among other things (this would also eliminate the need for--eugh--standardized testing). Ideally, this would exist in such a place where not doing this would be roughly as unthinkable as privatizing the army, and thus the actual political party in power would not matter.
  • That's all "in an ideal world" stuff of course, I realize it is not quite that simple.
  • edited 2014-07-19 03:49:22
    kill living beings
    no. "libertarian" is derived from "liberty" which means a billion different things to recent people. the term "libertarian socialist" predates or at least is not the same as the usage you're thinking of

    how did i typo "different" as "recent", well, ok
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    No, that's right-libertarianism. Small-"l" libertarianism simply means that you believe that self-determination is an imperative in society and that people should be free to do as they please and have a say in the way their society is run. The term was originally coined in reference to Proudhon's mutualism, which advocates for a kind of socialist free market which is very hard to describe. It was subsequently mainly used as a self-definition by radical leftists and anarchists of various stripes until fairly recently.

    Capital-"L" Libertarianism refers to a very particular interpretation of that ideal espoused by the Libertarian Party of the US and other such groups that asserts that economic freedom leads to personal freedom. The logical conclusion to this is anarcho-capitalism, which is not very common but does have its supporters; there are also forms in between the two, such as left-wing readings of Rothbard, but that's complicated.
  • No, that's right-libertarianism. Small-"l" libertarianism simply means that you believe that self-determination is an imperative in society and that people should be free to do as they please and have a say in the way their society is run. The term was originally coined in reference to Proudhon's mutualism, which advocates for a kind of socialist free market which is very hard to describe. It was subsequently mainly used as a self-definition by radical leftists and anarchists of various stripes until fairly recently.


    Capital-"L" Libertarianism refers to a very particular interpretation of that ideal espoused by the Libertarian Party of the US and other such groups that asserts that economic freedom leads to personal freedom. The logical conclusion to this is anarcho-capitalism, which is not very common but does have its supporters; there are also forms in between the two, such as left-wing readings of Rothbard, but that's complicated.
    ah.

    See I don't know none of these things, I've always been bad with like, names of movements.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”

    no. "libertarian" is derived from "liberty" which means a billion different things to recent people. the term "libertarian socialist" predates or at least is not the same as the usage you're thinking of

    how did i typo "different" as "recent", well, ok

    Yeah, pretty much this. "Libertarian socialist" dates to at least the 1890's, although the idea is certainly older.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”

    ah.

    See I don't know none of these things, I've always been bad with like, names of movements.

    It is OK, dude. Labels are not the important part.
  • kill living beings
    also mutualism is hilarious because money based on labor hours. work that theory of value baby WORK IT
  • also mutualism is hilarious because money based on labor hours. work that theory of value baby WORK IT

    what.

    ah.

    See I don't know none of these things, I've always been bad with like, names of movements.

    It is OK, dude. Labels are not the important part.
    well they aren't and they are.

    I am never going to be a politician so they're not super important for me, but giving people a name to rally behind can be important if you're trying to organize them.
  • kill living beings
    you know. labor theory of value. (it's lol)

    take it seriously and you get labor notes
  • It's times like this that I feel stupid because I don't really see why that's a strange idea.

    That's essentially what money boils down to already.
  • edited 2014-07-19 03:58:39
    “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”

    also mutualism is hilarious because money based on labor hours. work that theory of value baby WORK IT

    The labour theory of value at least gives workers leverage in the way that prices are determined. The purely subjective system just blows for anyone that makes things and gives power to speculators and investors. Sure, it can make things cheaper, but it makes it so easy to disenfranchise people.

    what.

    Labour theory of value states that work equals value. That simple.
  • kill living beings
    The usual modern theory is that money is an approximation to purchasing power, i.e. your ability to get people to give you stuff (objects or services). That's not really connected to labor time except insofar as more time probably means you're demanding a higher share of that power.

    Or, if you want the usual example: I spend two hours sewing a basket, you spend one hour getting a machine to make thirty baskets. who makes more money out of this
  • Labour theory of value states that work equals value. That simple.
    That, again, does not seem that strange to me. Unless some oddly narrow definition of "work" is being used here or s/t.

    The usual modern theory is that money is an approximation to purchasing power, i.e. your ability to get people to give you stuff (objects or services). That's not really connected to labor time except insofar as more time probably means you're demanding a higher share of that power.

    Or, if you want the usual example: I spend two hours sewing a basket, you spend one hour getting a machine to make thirty baskets. who makes more money out of this

    Obviously me, but that's just because my machine is effectively acting as my stand in, and is producing 30 hours worth of work in one hour.

    Am I wrong?
  • edited 2014-07-19 04:01:33
    kill living beings
    I should mention as long as I'm seriously talking about this that: labor theory of value is not "a socialist thing", Adam Smith expounded it and all that, it's just that the rest of the universe moved on. And you can do socialism without it and you oughta. Antipathy for economic theory seems to be a major trait of modern socialists for silly reasons, imo
  • Granted I can see where this gets very complicated, because you end up with a long chain of people acting as stand-ins for other people and nonperson objects acting as stand-ins for some others, but I don't see why it's inherently silly.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”

    The usual modern theory is that money is an approximation to purchasing power, i.e. your ability to get people to give you stuff (objects or services). That's not really connected to labor time except insofar as more time probably means you're demanding a higher share of that power.

    Or, if you want the usual example: I spend two hours sewing a basket, you spend one hour getting a machine to make thirty baskets. who makes more money out of this

    As much as I disdain the whole Luddite "efficiency is evil" mentality, the market-worship approach to value is just really stupid and gross to me.
  • kill living beings
    it's not inherently silly in that it's unintuitive, it's silly in that it doesn't work when you think about it too hard and we have better ideas now.

    you can do it without the machines, of course. i sew worse than you, so i make one basket in the time you make two.

    it also neglects, say, that my amateur baskets are shitty compared to yours and a buyer is going to want yours more.
  • edited 2014-07-19 04:05:33
    “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”

    I should mention as long as I'm seriously talking about this that: labor theory of value is not "a socialist thing", Adam Smith expounded it and all that, it's just that the rest of the universe moved on. And you can do socialism without it and you oughta. Antipathy for economic theory seems to be a major trait of modern socialists for silly reasons, imo

    I was about to mention that.

    But how should value be determined so as to avoid the problems of speculation, currency manipulation and general fuckery?

    ^ What about factoring effort and quality into the equation? This is partly subjective, but the labour input is still kept in mind.
  • it's not inherently silly in that it's unintuitive, it's silly in that it doesn't work when you think about it too hard and we have better ideas now.

    That I can understand.

    I still think it's a sound basis for a system of value, if not one on it's own, though.
  • anyway the fuck is this called so I ain't gotta use words

    Basically my own "Socialism" simply boils down to a belief that the state should do a lot more (and should in turn simply be run better, but that is another issue).

    Namely, I think the state should entirely control all industries that are essential to the health and wellbeing of its citizens. It is ludicrous to me that for example medicine is, by and large, a private field. Similarly I don't think what is taught in schools should be up for debate, a standardized national curriculum should exist that is based on sound science and a reasoned, balanced view of history, among other things (this would also eliminate the need for--eugh--standardized testing). Ideally, this would exist in such a place where not doing this would be roughly as unthinkable as privatizing the army, and thus the actual political party in power would not matter.


  • kill living beings

    The usual modern theory is that money is an approximation to purchasing power, i.e. your ability to get people to give you stuff (objects or services). That's not really connected to labor time except insofar as more time probably means you're demanding a higher share of that power.

    Or, if you want the usual example: I spend two hours sewing a basket, you spend one hour getting a machine to make thirty baskets. who makes more money out of this

    As much as I disdain the whole Luddite "efficiency is evil" mentality, the market-worship approach to value is just really stupid and gross to me.
    i ain't worshipping shit, man. i called it an approximation for a reason, why do you think economists talk "real" and "nominal" dollars?

    i'm a nihilist. nothing has objective value. this is irrelevant to economics, because we want things
  • edited 2014-07-19 04:08:01
    “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    ^^ That's pretty conventional democratic socialist thinking, leaning towards social democracy but a little more radical.

    ^ I'm not talking about you; I'm talking about how we assess value at large.
  • kill living beings

    anyway the fuck is this called so I ain't gotta use words

    Basically my own "Socialism" simply boils down to a belief that the state should do a lot more (and should in turn simply be run better, but that is another issue).

    Namely, I think the state should entirely control all industries that are essential to the health and wellbeing of its citizens. It is ludicrous to me that for example medicine is, by and large, a private field. Similarly I don't think what is taught in schools should be up for debate, a standardized national curriculum should exist that is based on sound science and a reasoned, balanced view of history, among other things (this would also eliminate the need for--eugh--standardized testing). Ideally, this would exist in such a place where not doing this would be roughly as unthinkable as privatizing the army, and thus the actual political party in power would not matter.


    state socialism? i guess? it could be any of many things. describes japan and the soviet union about as well
  • That's pretty conventional democratic socialist thinking, leaning towards social democracy but a little more radical.

    oh, cool.

    I like being able to succinctly describe my views without sounding like I'm inventing words.
  • kill living beings

    But how should value be determined so as to avoid the problems of speculation, currency manipulation and general fuckery?

    You end up with complications along the lines of "inflation". the point of the theory of value is not to say "my basket is objectively worth less than yours", it's descriptive, it's saying that people are willing to do more for your basket than for mine. i'm not sure that anybody really believes that something being ten dollars more than another thing means it's objectively better, but if there are, i don't agree

    ^ What about factoring effort and quality into the equation? This is partly subjective, but the labour input is still kept in mind.

    i imagine you'd end up with a similarly complicated system, but I don't see the point. i know nobody likes the "socialism in practice" thing, but if you're saying the labor theory of value means things work out better for workers i'd like, you know, some kind of evidence? we all know how well soviet workers were doing (lol Solidarity)
  • kill living beings
    of course this ties into my general bugaboo that socialists like talking about things and theorizing about things more than they like picket lines. unfortunate
  • I think you'll find that's most people, man.
  • edited 2014-07-19 04:20:54
    “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    ^^^ ...and this, in a nutshell, is why monetary policy is irritating to me: There is no good answer and it does nothing but encourage a bunch of smarmy banter about the frigging USSR, who generally failed at socialism on every possible level.

    So I think of socialism in practice on completely different terms, which is to say redistribution, communal support systems, free healthcare, cooperatives - the good stuff.

    ^^ Dude, I said right up there that I act on what I see in the world. It's why I'm not a Marxist.
  • Like I know several capital-L Libertarians who didn't even vote because "there's no way the system would let Ron Paul win".

    Plus it's hard to picket much out here in Bumfuck Nowhere, Pennsylvania. What am I going to protest?
  • kill living beings
    not so! thanks to myrmidon not knowing when to stop, i present... "PHILOSOPHICAL IDEALISTS AS COMRADES-IN-ARMS: A REPLY TO SAM KRISS"

    Analogies of childhood paranoia within a polemic against alleged
    “conspiracist thinking” seems an odd juxtaposition, nevertheless, it may
    have inadvertently provided us with a source of Kriss’ distinct adult
    aversion to concrete analysis and determinations that tend to upset his
    metaphysical sophistry. Kriss throws his accusations of faulty theory
    like toys from a pram, but any concrete evidence to convincingly refute
    alleged fault is somewhat lacking. We will address the claims
    regardless, in concrete historical detail.

    In Kriss’ muddled equation, the third term – the distinct
    property within each aspect of a contradiction that is common to them
    both, but not indifferent, and not exclusive to the transient aspect –
    has become “essential” and “revolutionary” to the dialectic. It is no
    longer the dialectic itself that is revolutionary to the subjectivist,
    but a static, metaphysical aspect within it. Contrary to this twaddle,
    and as Marx’s quote confirms, the transient aspect of the dialectic must
    only be grasped “as well” as its other aspects and not above or
    superseding them. The dialectic “does not let itself be impressed by
    anything” – and that includes its transient aspect and the sublation of
    qualitative difference. It is in fact Kriss who has fallen foul of
    Marx’s warning and become “impressed by things”; impressed by his static
    metaphysical permanent concept of resolvable contradiction through a
    grotesque interpretation of Marx’s third term. As Engels clearly states:

    Kriss throws the accusation of “depoliticizing tragedy” while employing
    bourgeois sectarian motifs to mask political processes, therefore
    metaphysically aligning the current, yet ever-changing balance of power
    within the Iraq antagonism in the complete opposite to reality to form
    his false concept. To then suggest anti-imperialists “have abandoned
    reality-based analysis” while positing muddle-headed theory is
    indicative of the cognitive dissonance required to uphold such base
    scepticism.

    can you tell what current event this blog post is supposedly about?

    seriously though, you know thomas l friedman? that's how i read everybody in this shite
  • kill living beings

    ^^ Dude, I said right up there that I act on what I see in the world. It's why I'm not a Marxist.

    yeah i'm just complaining in general. it really irritates me
  • Most of the things out here that could conceivably agitate a socialist (indeed, anyone with a strong political stance) are very small scale, local problems. The problem with those is that they're more likely to actually get fixed than large-scale state or national ones, and are thus not glamorous to take action in regards to.

    People care if the police break up your protest on Capitol Hill. Nobody cares if you organize a community effort to clean up a local park so the neighborhood kids have somewhere nice to play. In terms of visibility, it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
  • kill living beings

    ^^^ ...and this, in a nutshell, is why monetary policy is irritating to me: There is no good answer and it does nothing but encourage a bunch of smarmy banter about the frigging USSR, who generally failed at socialism on every possible level.


    So I think of socialism in practice on completely different terms, which is to say redistribution, communal support systems, free healthcare, cooperatives - the good stuff.
    sorry, i'm not trying to be smarmy. but you said the labor theory of value gives workers more leverage, which is a pretty specific claim that seems unlikely to me. like i don't even understand what you mean. if i petition for a wage increase am i saying that i'm working more now? that my effort is worth more now?

    i mean, consider how i'm thinking a bit here. i wanna choose a theory of value. advantages of labor theory of value: supposedly helps workers. advantages of marginalist theory of value: like two hundred years of useful economic theory.
  • Fracking is a national issue, I suppose, now that I think of it.
  • kill living beings

    Most of the things out here that could conceivably agitate a socialist (indeed, anyone with a strong political stance) are very small scale, local problems. The problem with those is that they're more likely to actually get fixed than large-scale state or national ones, and are thus not glamorous to take action in regards to.

    People care if the police break up your protest on Capitol Hill. Nobody cares if you organize a community effort to clean up a local park so the neighborhood kids have somewhere nice to play. In terms of visibility, it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

    i think i might have come off as elitist. i didn't mean you have to get yourself fired to be a True Socialist. maybe i said that though. nobody i actually know, such as yourself, seems to do the Adorno thing. that's what just really irritates me.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”

    ^^ Dude, I said right up there that I act on what I see in the world. It's why I'm not a Marxist.

    yeah i'm just complaining in general. it really irritates me
    It's probably worth stating in fairness that one of the most politically active people who I know, Milos/Ironweaver, is an ardent Trotskyite. But he also will admit without reservation that ideology does not always reflect how people think and act and you have to be flexible in order to get things done.

    Honestly, I envy his proactivity and positivity.

    Most of the things out here that could conceivably agitate a socialist (indeed, anyone with a strong political stance) are very small scale, local problems. The problem with those is that they're more likely to actually get fixed than large-scale state or national ones, and are thus not glamorous to take action in regards to.

    People care if the police break up your protest on Capitol Hill. Nobody cares if you organize a community effort to clean up a local park so the neighborhood kids have somewhere nice to play. In terms of visibility, it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

    First steps are always the little ones. Get people to care and you set them on the right path.
  • Most of the things out here that could conceivably agitate a socialist (indeed, anyone with a strong political stance) are very small scale, local problems. The problem with those is that they're more likely to actually get fixed than large-scale state or national ones, and are thus not glamorous to take action in regards to.

    People care if the police break up your protest on Capitol Hill. Nobody cares if you organize a community effort to clean up a local park so the neighborhood kids have somewhere nice to play. In terms of visibility, it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

    i think i might have come off as elitist. i didn't mean you have to get yourself fired to be a True Socialist. maybe i said that though. nobody i actually know, such as yourself, seems to do the Adorno thing. that's what just really irritates me.
    who's Adorno?

    Anyway, even if you don't believe that, the visibility thing is a genuine problem. Most people don't in America don't really even know what Socialism is.
  • First steps are always the little ones. Get people to care and you set them on the right path.
    That is what I tell myself and also largely why I voted for Obama. The whole Universal Healthcare thing as a first step to the expanded state I described above, and all that.
  • edited 2014-07-19 04:35:42
    kill living beings
    theodore adorno was a music critic. his ideas on society are important to many socialists for reasons unknown to me. i would rather they talk about marx. marx actually talked about real people for god's sake.

    it's not even a marxist/not thing, though marxists seem to be a lot more prone to being slovenian philosophers.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”

    sorry, i'm not trying to be smarmy. but you said the labor theory of value gives workers more leverage, which is a pretty specific claim that seems unlikely to me. like i don't even understand what you mean. if i petition for a wage increase am i saying that i'm working more now? that my effort is worth more now?

    i mean, consider how i'm thinking a bit here. i wanna choose a theory of value. advantages of labor theory of value: supposedly helps workers. advantages of marginalist theory of value: like two hundred years of useful economic theory.

    That is fair.

    Although to be honest, the whole way that money and stocks work in the civilised world right now just strikes me as intensely messed up on levels that I find difficult to articulate. But then again, one need not revert to the labour theory of value to take an axe to that way of doing things, as noted.
  • I will say, and I don't know Sredni if this is the same thing you're talking about, I really don't like it when people are quantified.

    I feel like a lot of work boils down to that, you being treated as a disposable body rather than a human being.

    theodore adorno was a music critic. his ideas on society are important to many socialists for reasons unknown to me. i would rather they talk about marx. marx actually talked about real people for god's sake.

    it's not even a marxist/not thing, though marxists seem to be a lot more prone to being slovenian philosophers.

    never heard of 'im.
  • edited 2014-07-19 04:38:44
    “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”

    theodore adorno was a music critic. his ideas on society are important to many socialists for reasons unknown to me. i would rather they talk about marx. marx actually talked about real people for god's sake.

    it's not even a marxist/not thing, though marxists seem to be a lot more prone to being slovenian philosophers.

    Wasn't he Michel Foucault's boyfriend?

    But yeah, aside from being an incredibly caustic music critic and theorist of the "anything not atonal is FASCIST" school, Adorno was a neo-Marxist political theorist and cultural critic. These things were not unconnected.

    ^ It does, but not in a super direct way.
  • But Adorno, if I am a musician and my music is not atonal, but I self identify as a Socialist, how can I also be a Fascist when the two positions are opposed?

    Oops, I have been logic'd out of existence by a dead man.

    *puffs*
  • kill living beings
    i think the best thing to do is to analyze economic systems without relying too much on ideas of "socialist" or "capitalist" economies. for example, let's take the united states. what have you got? large conglomerations of people spend most of their time taking orders from unelected officials - or rather, those officials HAVE been elected, but by stockholders, which doesn't necessarily mean employees. that is, as far as i'm concerned, not a great state of affairs, but with only mild twisting it would describe both the modern united states and most soviet state enterprises, despite that the american enterprises are "not part of the state".

    delong wrote some neat things about this

    a lot of people take issue with stockbrokers and bankers and such being so personally rich because "they're just moving money around", which, well, i sympathize. but we do have banks for a reason, they move money around. if you want to start a company you can get a loan from a bank, and where do they get that money? other people. and they make interest on you if you succeed. a system like this seems to me to be a good idea. it could, in the above vein, also to some extent describe state organizations like gosplan. so we can apply the same sort of criticisms.
  • edited 2014-07-19 04:45:43
    “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    ^^ Adorno believed that classical music (which was his area) should represent the state of the world as it was in post-war Europe and discard the trappings of the old Europe, particularly the sort of kitsch Romantic gestures associated with more conservative styles and the tonal bombast of Stalin's "Soviet realist" state composers. He viewed more traditional composition as retrogressive and happy music as unrealistic.

    True Art is angsty and socially conscious, in other words.
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