thread for posting musical thoughts

glennmagusharvey · 2013-12-11 01:09:55

Words, pictures, sound recordings, videos. This thread is for when you want to wonderpost a specific musical idea -- not just a whole song.

(Meteor Light)

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-12-11 01:42:22

I have never fully understood the point of double-sharps outside of music that actually differentiates between chromatic and diatonic semitones.

glennmagusharvey · 2013-12-11 09:15:34

I think it's convention, in the context of seven-note scales, to think of accidental'd notes as modifications of their base notes, and choosing note spelling in a way that "leans toward" the next note. So part of the reason we use Bb rather than A# in a C7 chord is because the Bb leans toward an A in C major (or an Ab in C minor). Or an tritone on C in a C lydian (or major) setting (think the Simpsons theme song) leans toward an upward resolution to a perfect fifth, so we spell it as F# going to G rather than Gb going to G.

Using double-sharps and double-flats is just an extension of this principle to something that's already sharped. Going with the F# to G example, let's say we were in C# lydian/major. The F is already sharped, so just slap a double-sharp onto it, so it still looks right on paper: Fx to G#.

At least, that's what I think.

glennmagusharvey · 2013-12-11 21:57:01

(recite this with a swing rhythm)

o/` will yaturn, off thekit chenlight, when, you're done. *yeah* o/`

...so sleaze. :| I don't like sleaze. However, it is a great way to ear worm.

glennmagusharvey · 2013-12-11 21:59:15

why is it that after producing a particularly egregious pun, my head temporarily gets some sort of really cheesy rhythm played at high speed.

Like, for example, the beginning of the Duck Tales theme, or the Super Mario World credits theme, or the refrain part of COOL & CREATE's "Help Me, Erin!", or the Battletoads pause music? Usually, this is accompanied by a desire to make a very forced, very toothy, grin while otherwise appearing constipated.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-12-11 22:06:14

glennmagusharvey said:
I think it's convention, in the context of seven-note scales, to think of accidental'd notes as modifications of their base notes, and choosing note spelling in a way that "leans toward" the next note. So part of the reason we use Bb rather than A# in a C7 chord is because the Bb leans toward an A in C major (or an Ab in C minor). Or an tritone on C in a C lydian (or major) setting (think the Simpsons theme song) leans toward an upward resolution to a perfect fifth, so we spell it as F# going to G rather than Gb going to G.

Using double-sharps and double-flats is just an extension of this principle to something that's already sharped. Going with the F# to G example, let's say we were in C# lydian/major. The F is already sharped, so just slap a double-sharp onto it, so it still looks right on paper: Fx to G#.

At least, that's what I think.

With a chord out of a key where the accidentals only diverge into flats and sharps, this makes sense. But here's the thing: If you have written a piece in G# minor and wish to throw in an A# major chord for some reason, why not just write it as...

Wait, that's a different problem. C flat and Cx are both silly for completely different reasons.

Unless C flat is not B and Cx is not D, of course.

glennmagusharvey · 2013-12-11 22:14:31

Oh, also, this sort of spelling is relevant for harpists. At least when it comes to enharmonics of white key notes. Because their pedals adjust pitch for all C's, or D's, or etc. at once. So they can give you a beautiful E-flat minor harmonic scale glissando if you let them use Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb, D, but if you force them to use B natural instead of Cb, they'll be changing the status of the B every time they come across it.

stop being so piano-centric

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-12-11 22:23:16

I'm not being piano-centric. I'm tacitly criticising twelve-tone equal temperament and its dearth of actual varied notes. Harp tuning and the playing of stringed instruments are different matters, although that specific fact of harp tuning I did not know. Thank you.

glennmagusharvey · 2013-12-11 22:46:58

(I was being facetious with that comment :P)

And yeah, a violinist friend to me that for him, D# is actually a little more sharp than Eb. Of course, he can get away with it with fretting. As a keyboardist, however, I don't have much choice in the matter...

...yes, that pun was indeed intentional.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-12-11 23:09:55

It's interesting how violins and other leading string instruments tend toward impromptu schismatic or Pythagorean tunings—where C to C# is wider than B to C—while choral music tends to favour meantone and just intonation arrangements—where B to C is wider than C to C#. Why makes perfect sense, but it's still intriguing.

Yarrun XIX · 2013-12-11 23:52:33

Sredni Vashtar said:

glennmagusharvey said:
I think it's convention, in the context of seven-note scales, to think of accidental'd notes as modifications of their base notes, and choosing note spelling in a way that "leans toward" the next note. So part of the reason we use Bb rather than A# in a C7 chord is because the Bb leans toward an A in C major (or an Ab in C minor). Or an tritone on C in a C lydian (or major) setting (think the Simpsons theme song) leans toward an upward resolution to a perfect fifth, so we spell it as F# going to G rather than Gb going to G.

Using double-sharps and double-flats is just an extension of this principle to something that's already sharped. Going with the F# to G example, let's say we were in C# lydian/major. The F is already sharped, so just slap a double-sharp onto it, so it still looks right on paper: Fx to G#.

At least, that's what I think.
With a chord out of a key where the accidentals only diverge into flats and sharps, this makes sense. But here's the thing: If you have written a piece in G# minor and wish to throw in an A# major chord for some reason, why not just write it as...

Wait, that's a different problem. C flat and Cx are both silly for completely different reasons.

Unless C flat is not B and Cx is not D, of course.

A# in the key of G# functions as the submediant. By the rules of Western music theory, it's supposed to go to the dominant of the key, or D#. Altering it to be major emphasizes its function because Cx functions as a leading tone going up to D#. The way that it's written makes it easy to see where the individual notes of the chord are supposed to go.

If it was written as Bb major, on the flatted mediant, its function in the piece isn't immediately clear because the mediant doesn't have a clear direction and the D should, as a 'flatted' note, be going down. It's confusing for anyone who has to analyze it, and being able to analyze a piece helps a lot in playing it.

Sorry if I'm repeating GMH too much.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-12-12 00:16:30

Western music theory seems designed to play a very limited range of music, in the greater scheme of things.

glennmagusharvey · 2013-12-12 00:19:52

Well I tried not to go too deep into the theory weeds because I can get everyone lost when I do, but yeah, it's basically based on how the notes are expected to relate to each other, based on traditional western music theory.

also by "submediant" you mean "supertonic" (scale degree 2) since "submediant" is used to refer to scale degree 6

^ well, it by default covers about 400 years worth of music that's recognized around the world, and with a few small extensions you can cover much of modern non-folk music too. It's not perfect but I'd argue that it's a good start.

That said, it isn't perfect, especially when it comes to subdivisions of the octave into more or fewer than 12 notes (or some factor of it). And there's a lot of folk styles that get into what western theory would consider odd tuning styles, stuff like quarter-tones and whatnot.

Rhythm, on the other hand, seems to be pretty well set. Probably because we all have two feet and stuff.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-12-12 00:39:57

I don't mean the system of notation itself so much as the theoretical constructs of classical counterpoint and how they work with notation. The way that a piece can be written and how one is taught to play and interpret it it so often depend on particular tropes or cadences or melodic practices that paint a very narrow picture of what music is. Consider the wild chromatic transpositions of Renaissance polyphony and modal jazz, or (as you alluded to) the manifold subtle inflections of the Indian shruti or the Arabic and Turkish maqam. Gamelan is harmonically simple enough to be rendered in straight diatonic terms, as is much West African and Congolese music, but the notes take on such different meanings.

Rhythm, I will concede, is well-represented. Very much so. But melody can be a problem.

glennmagusharvey · 2013-12-15 07:23:39

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1JiTIzpaup5

(it's from Symphogear, specifically one of the OST tracks)

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