Lee rambles about old computers and other stuff

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  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Reading about the Commodore 1541 now...one of the odd things about the 1541 was that it wasn't a block device, like a PC floppy or a SCSI drive, it was actually a very simple network-attached storage device. You interacted with it by using file names.
  • Huh, that's interesting.  I guess it was to be less taxing on the CPU, most of the filesystem logic was on the drive?
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Yup...if you wanted to upgrade the DOS on a 1541, you had to pull it apart and change the ROMs.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    The good news: I went out and bought an 802.11ac router today, and it works great on my phone (the one device I have so far that supports ac). 

    The bad news: I still can't get anything faster than 65 Mbit/s on my lappy, even on the new router, and even though the wireless card has two antennas.

    The ugly news: 
    • It turns out the speeds promised for 802.11n are a total fucking scam. To get 150, 300, or 450 Mbit/s, you have to use something called "pair bonding", something that only works if your card and router support it, and which is not a good idea at all on 2.4 GHz because there are no non-overlapping channels that aren't in use in most places. 
    • Few 802.11n cards support the less-crowded 5 GHz band; even if the driver settings say it's supported, the radio may not be so cooperative. 
    • Without both 5 GHz support and pair bonding, your maximum speed with one antenna is a brisk 72 Mbit/s. It's hardly worth upgrading from g in that case.
    • The only way to guarantee 5 GHz support is to get an 802.11ac card, but the damn things are like hen's teeth! The only Mini-PCIe cards I can find are Intel, and cards for desktop machines with regular PCIe are very expensive for consumer cards; they start at around $50 and go up from there. I get the distinct sense ac is still not quite done outside of mobile and embedded applications. :P
    Still, it's not a total waste; I can move things around so the Verizon router does only b/g and the new one does n/ac, so that throughput will be higher.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Okay, I found one other device that supports 5 GHz: The TP-LINK 11n card in my media server/client bridge PC. Looks like I'll want to get a second one of those (or possibly an 11ac-to-USB 3.0 card) for Mom's machine.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Also, I have the 16 MB upgrade in the 486, but Windows 98 needs a math coprocessor, so it won't even install. Fucker. 

    In the meantime, I'll keep playing with FreeDOS and working on getting the network card and sound going.
  • edited 2015-02-09 07:42:57
    THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Oh, and NetBSD needs an NPX as well. Bollocks. I have a 486DX-33 on order now. :P

    However, the network card works quite well, and I've managed to get the sound working too (though not so much the AWE part yet, as I don't have any games that support it natively).
  • edited 2015-02-09 17:47:01
    THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    ISA PnP was weird, man. It was essentially a backport of EISA auto-configuration (it even used the same IDs), but with the added step of including the available config options in the card's PnP ROM (something neither EISA nor MCA did; you had to have the setup disks for every card in your system there). 

    Also, it seems those damn NiCd and NiMH clock batteries a lot of 1990s PCs used are no longer made. They went the way of the dodo when PCI machines switched en masse to the CR2032 sometime around 1995 (it took Apple a bit longer, but then, they'd been using half-AA lithium batteries since the 1980s). I bring this up because my 486 uses one (and miraculously, it still works and isn't leaking), but I do want to replace it with something less dangerous.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Also, I borrowed the ROM burner and UV eraser from work (we haven't used either in years), and got the XTIDE AT BIOS going on the 486. It can now boot off of a 20 GB hard disk formatted with FAT32.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    I got the 486DX, but for some reason it's not stable at 33 MHz. Trying to do much of anything makes it crash. It works fine at 25 MHz, though...wondering if enabling 33 MHz also forces on the external cache (that isn't there).

    Also, I found out who PB's contract builder for these machines was after all these years...it was Tatung.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Okay, crazy idea of the day: Take the 120 GB out of the G4, put it in the 486, then use the 160GB for Mac OS and Linux split 50/50 (80 GB is more than enough for either). 120 GB is far more than I'm ever likely to use on the 486, even with FreeBSD installed, but it's worth it to have a drive that doesn't whine.
  • Well, that disk is cheap and easy to get another like if necessary, so why not?  And my personal comfort is worth it; yours is too.

    I kind of miss playing around with 486s and stuff like that.  Perhaps I should find one.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Yeah, they are fun. Reminds me of the days when my brother and I were playing with them all the time.
  • My first day in my first job after college, I was given a 486 box (one of the PCs made by Intel in their very brief foray into providing whole systems), a disk containing a virus, a clean MS-DOS boot disk, a copy of the 486 Handbook from Intel, a copy of the MS-DOS Encyclopedia, and told to work out what it does.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    TIL there's an MS-DOS Encyclopedia
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Intel still makes motherboards, but I don't think I've seen a whole system from them that's not a server or a NUC.
  • This was a full-tower desktop PC.  Big enough to be a server, but not explicitly so.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html

    I know Linux still has some issues as a desktop OS, but I see these point-by-point complaint files and tend to write them off as "You obviously want to run Windows 7 or OS X instead, so go do that! Quit yer bitchin' and go do something else."
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    The author seems particularly angry about 3d graphics and SMB networking support. If he needs both of those to work perfectly, then suck it up and pay the $140 for a Windows license. You're never going to be happy with Linux or any other Unix.
  • how does running an OS require 3D graphics?

    and what is SMB other than a famous NES game
  • Linux will never have mass appeal because something that requires a moderate level of tech savviness will never have mass appeal.

    There's always gonna be people who just don't care enough.

    Like for instance, myself.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Or my mom, for that matter. She's tech-savvy, but used enough to having certain applications around (most of which are Windows-exclusive) that Windows 7 is really the best choice for her. 

    Also....if there's one sentiment in that article I do agree with, it's that the thrill is gone. There was a time when Windows was horribly unstable, about as secure as a screen door, and Microsoft seemed to care not a whit about it now that they'd seen off Netscape. That time was the late 1990s and early 2000s, the bad old days of Windows 98 and Windows XP RTM. Microsoft's seeming disregard for their product drove a lot of people to support free alternatives, and Linux and the BSDs gained a lot of advocates in those eras. It also helped that the Mac was essentially dead until 1998 and not terribly interesting again until about 2001 or so, and a lot of its advocates at least tested the waters while Apple re-invented itself.

    But now? Windows improved to the point that it doesn't crash unless a bogus driver or bad hardware is doing it (the switch to NT helped a lot there), security has improved greatly, Bill Gates is off giving all his money away, and Steve Ballmer just bought the Lakers. Microsoft is much harder to hate now. The Mac is still expensive, but presents a level of polish that's still quite attractive to people. And that's made it so that Linux on the desktop only appeals to a few people who still remember how broken things were around 1995 and haven't noticed that 20 years have gone by without much progress, or to people like me who actually kind of like GNOME 3. :o
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS

    how does running an OS require 3D graphics?

    and what is SMB other than a famous NES game

    It's not so much the OS that needs it as applications like games and certain types of graphics software. I think the author may be judging X's OpenGL support solely on what's implemented in Mesa (which is definitely something of a laggard); Nvidia and AMD provide their own OpenGL libraries which are usually better. 

    SMB is Server Message Block, the protocol that underlies Windows file sharing. I believe it dates back to IBM's NetBIOS networking stuff from the 1980s, but the Windows implementation is considered canonical now. Linux distros (and OS X, though I don't know if that's still true) use a free software package called Samba to access SMB servers. It works well, though until Samba 4 came out recently, it was roughly on NT 4's level of functionality (Samba 4 finally has a proper Active Directory implementation, and it's even been vetted by MS's interop people).
  • edited 2015-02-22 08:38:14
    Oh, OpenGL vs. DirectX/Direct3D/DirectDraw/what'stherightnameforthatanyway?

    Windows file sharing as in things like sharing files over LAN (i.e. the "Network" location)?
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Yes, and yes.
  • Sup bitches, witches, Haters, and trolls.
    the Clippers, not the Lakers, though oddly enough the past couple years the Clippers have been the better team as Kobe's gotten old and injured, though this is a minor point

    As for Linux on the desktop, I currently use a Windows laptop and I have my older laptop running Linux without X, and ssh into the latter from the former for lots of things.  The math department has both Linux and Windows desktops and I prefer the former because I can ssh easier.
  • edited 2015-02-22 09:25:30
    THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Oh, right, I couldn't remember so I just guessed. :|

    I really do think that the author doesn't see personal computers as general-purpose devices; he sees them as akin to IBM 3270s or DEC  VT-100s, defined, reliable user interfaces linking into much larger, more complex systems (that just happen to be running locally in most cases these days). Not having a rock-solid specification and sticking to it irks him badly.
  • I do think he's completely right that Linux as-a-whole is really arrogant about breaking stuff constantly.  They care even less about breaking backwards compatibility than Apple does, and Apple is pretty bad about it, because they want you buying new stuff all the time.
  • yeah but like, Linux is the future man

    how can you be the future if you're tied to the past?

    *tokes one*
  • backwards compatibility isn't very future
  • I don't even know who I was making fun of there

    some kind of hypothetical computer hippie.
  • edited 2015-02-23 15:54:20
    THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Morven said:

    I do think he's completely right that Linux as-a-whole is really arrogant about breaking stuff constantly.  They care even less about breaking backwards compatibility than Apple does, and Apple is pretty bad about it, because they want you buying new stuff all the time.

    That and the whole "it's not for you, maaaan" attitude some developers have. I've seen so many OSS people devolve into rolling on the floor tantrums crying about "YOU FUCKING WINDOWS LUSERS ARE SPOILING MY FUN" when you ask them to do simple things like, say, have a consistent interface that isn't reminiscent of a Sun-3 circa 1990, or (shock horror) write decent documentation

    To many people, Linux isn't a serious OS, it's a tinkerer's playground akin to Unix PWB, and will never be ready for prime time because it's not supposed to be. Thankfully, the distros reel most of this childishness in, but they can only do so much.

    And really, if you dislike writing software that faces end users, then why bother? There's always things like kernel hacking or working on systems like microcontrollers or things like that. Anything but the public tantrums and shade-throwing.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    This just in: deflate is slow as hell on a 486.
  • edited 2015-02-25 22:21:50
    THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    NetBSD is installed, but for some reason the boot blocks won't boot from my 120 GB. The same drive boots the exact same NetBSD install just fine on the Athlon machine (which has BIOS that's not freaking beta-quality). I can try again with a different drive that's been set up to fit /boot into the lower 500 MB, but it's looking like I may have to abandon this exercise for now and use a SCSI drive and controller. -_-

    I have an Adaptec 1542 and a 50 GB Seagate on order now. I already have a couple of 68-pin cables, and I have a 50-68 converter someplace, so hooking things up shouldn't be hard.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Well, I made some progress while the parts are on the way: NetBSD will boot if I give it the entire hard disk. This probably means something is wrong with the Maxtor's partition table. I'm looking forward to the SCSI drive anyway, since it should be faster; this thing's motherboard IDE seems to be paddleboard IDE connected to the ISA bus, not local-bus IDE that can do advanced PIO or MWDMA modes.

    I notice that X doesn't support this thing's video card. Probably not surprising; XFree86 4 dropped support for several older cards, and X11R7 dropped support for even more (the argument being that any older card worth using would have a working VESA BIOS...and this one doesn't :P). I may need to find and patch the last version of XFree86 with the video7 driver to get a display on this thing, unless I want to go looking for an ATI or Tseng video card...
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS

    32. Video 7

    3.3.6:

    Support for the Video 7 chipset is provided by the XF86_SVGA server with the video7 driver. The status of this support is unknown because we don't have any recent test reports, and this driver has no maintainer.

    4.0:

    No native support for these chipsets, because the old driver has not been ported.

    Summary:

    No Video 7 chips are supported in 4.0.


    In short, FUCK. I guess I'll have to get and install 3.3.6 if I want to use the onboard video. X.X 

    That or I get to SPEND MORE MONEY. God damn.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    And I just spent more money. X.X At least it was only about $30 instead of the $90+ some assholes are charging for old video cards on eBay...
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    The 486 I have is from 1993. My Athlon board is from 2003. It's clocked nearly 80 times higher, runs integer instructions something like 130 times faster, and supports a lot more memory. It's interesting to see how far we came in just 10 years.
  • edited 2015-02-26 23:04:47
    THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    The machine I'm typing this on is from 2012. It's clocked not quite 50% faster than the Athlon, but: 

    CPU                 : 8 CPU GenuineIntel Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2630QM CPU @ 2.00GHz 2605MHz
    L2 Cache            : 6144 KB
    OS                  : Linux 3.16.0-4-amd64
    C compiler          : gcc version 4.9.1 (Debian 4.9.1-19) 
    libc                : libc-2.19.so
    MEMORY INDEX        : 36.683
    INTEGER INDEX       : 31.681
    FLOATING-POINT INDEX: 49.729
    Baseline (LINUX)    : AMD K6/233*, 512 KB L2-cache, gcc 2.7.2.3, libc-5.4.38


    It's 3.5 times faster just on one thread! (nbench can't test all 8 threads).

    Also note that the performance jump over the next 9 years has not been anywhere near as dramatic. There's a reason why everything is multi-core now, and it's because we're getting to the point where we can't make the transistors any smaller...
  • Sup bitches, witches, Haters, and trolls.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    That page is paywalled :P
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    I need to get an SA account at some point

    But I'm a spoiled brat who refuses to buy my own because I deserve to have people give me things
  • do you need me to like loan you 5 bucks
  • edited 2015-03-01 05:04:04
    THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Well, shit. My new video card got here, and it works, but it seems like newer versions of X don't support ISA video cards at all. They have to be local-bus or PCI, or the drivers just aren't interested....or at least the Cirrus Logic driver isn't. :P

    I guess I have to spend the beaucoup bucks on an ATI or Tseng card. It's either that, or get a second 486 with PCI to run NetBSD on. :P
  • Sup bitches, witches, Haters, and trolls.

    I need to get an SA account at some point

    But I'm a spoiled brat who refuses to buy my own because I deserve to have people give me things

    i think myrmidon or someone was offering
  • edited 2015-03-01 05:07:29
    THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Okay, the only fucking driver that still supports ISA is the goddamn TRIDENT driver, for some reason. ATI cuts off at the Mach64, Cirrus cuts off at the 5430, and Tseng cuts off at the W32p (which was never available in ISA).

    I WISH I HAD KNOWN THIS SOONER. >_<
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    Okay, fuck this shit. If you want a 486 PCI board these days, you either have to pay a lot of money, or you have to import one from the Ukraine AS-IS. I'm not risking $50 on a board that might not work. 

    I think it's time to start considering Socket 5 and 7 boards.
  • THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS
    As for the Packard Bell, I think it'll be happiest in Win95 OSR2. FreeDOS has a number of weird bugs regarding the floppy drive that are driving me nuts, and if I want to run other OSes, I'd have to run versions of them from the late 1990s/early 2000s anyhow (damn XFree86 dropping support for things), so I may as well run what would have been this thing's most practical OS. (Win98 would probably be too much for it, or that's what Microsoft's specs say, anyhow.)
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