Zelda and feminism stuff

Alduin · 2013-09-15 04:17:26

I was discussing Zelda with my mom (no really, she asked) when the topic of Zelda's role came up. I explained to her that Legend of Zelda was built on archetypes, so it was only fitting that the damsel-in-distress role be filled by a woman. That answer satisfied her, but it sure didn't satisfy me. Why? Because my favorite Zelda game (Majora's Mask) is great because it goes out of the way to avoid being archetypal. And that started a whole new train of thought. Does Zelda really have to be a passive, living MacGuffin for Link to rescue? Does she need to fit into archetypes to make a new Zelda game?

What are your thoughts on this? I wanted to ask you people because you seem really concerned about this sort of thing.

Viani · 2013-09-15 04:18:18

Link's goal can be switched from Zelda to something else sometimes

Alduin · 2013-09-15 04:19:15

Viani said:
Link's goal can be switched from Zelda to something else sometimes

Yeah, that's what I said in the OP. In Majora's Mask, Link's goal was to awaken the Giants to stop the Moon from killing everyone.

Viani · 2013-09-15 04:21:52

Alas! Forsooth! I have been undone!

Alduin · 2013-09-15 04:24:55

Is your castle going to start collapsing too?

Viani · 2013-09-15 04:26:46

I am my own castle....T_T

Tanya · 2013-09-15 04:28:47

Acererak said:
Does Zelda really have to be a passive, living MacGuffin for Link to rescue?

As you have already brought up, no, no she doesn't need to be the end goal.

Acererak said:
Does she need to fit into archetypes to make a new Zelda game?

No, in fact during Windwaker Legend of Zelda, for most of the game she's a pirate captain who sails the seas and helps you along your journey with her pirate crew, of course, the game did eventually go out of its way to put a dress on Zelda and the knock her out and get her kidnapped, but narratively the story could've unfolded about the same without that.

Bee · 2013-09-15 05:44:22

And in Spirit Tracks she's dead and still manages to kick ass.

Alduin · 2013-09-15 07:19:19

Bee said:
And in Spirit Tracks she's dead and still manages to kick ass.

The correct term is "temporarily separated from mortal shell".

I couldn't bring myself to play that game, because the overworld travel was terrible.

One-Winged Eagle · 2013-09-15 08:01:24

What about the one where she cross-dresses as a ninja?

Alduin · 2013-09-15 08:07:44

Sheik? Oh, she mostly plays a passive role in that one, too.

Fossilmaiden · 2013-09-15 09:58:03

As soon as she reveals her true identity, she promptly gets kidnapped.

Alduin · 2013-09-15 10:20:42

That happened with Tetra too, though it wasn't immediately.

Hexartes · 2013-09-15 12:15:57

I think Zelda works better than something like Mario because at least her getting captured isn't just some lazy plot device. The only time I can think of where her being a damsel didn't work was Wind Waker.

Hexartes · 2013-09-15 12:21:31

I don't have a problem with Zelda's portrayal in any of the games, really, except for when her getting captured was just laziness on the part of the writers (as in WW and the two FS games), but it's pretty hard to ignore how much of a positive effect her having a more active role would help.

I think it'd be cool if Nintendo release DLC for SS where you play through Zelda's side of the adventure, but I doubt that will happen.

Miss Miko Mayonegg · 2013-09-15 13:03:36

Zelda is either a plot object or suffers from "strong female character" syndrome, where she is kind of cool at first, but literally every time, her ultimate destiny is to lose her agency and become Link's damsel in distress. Zelda's title character is very boring. I like the other females Link befriends, though.

Hexartes · 2013-09-15 13:47:58

Miko said:
Zelda is either a plot object or suffers from "strong female character" syndrome, where she is kind of cool at first, but literally every time, her ultimate destiny is to lose her agency and become Link's damsel in distress.

This really isn't true, though.

Bee · 2013-09-15 14:20:18

I still want to see a Zelda game where Zelda follows you around as a switchable character. Like, an overarching plot thing where Ganondorf is specifically gunning for you like in Twilight Princess and messing up the entire landscape along the way, and when Hyrule Castle gets taken Zelda just goes "fuck this shit" and straight-up joins you.

I'm thinking the AI is such that if you play as Link, Zelda either plays support and shoots minor targets that you're not aiming at (like Keese) or flanks your target diagonally to get a clear shot. If you're playing as Zelda, Link plays defensive lineman, moves himself diagonally from whatever you're targeting to give you a clear shot, and rolls under your line of fire to cross it. The balance is that Zelda gets owned at close range if you're not playing as her, and Link is forced on the defensive if you're not playing as him.

If she's in disguise throughout the game, she drops it right near the final stretch of the story, a cutscene plays out where Ganondorf tries to kidnap her, and for whatever reason he gets Link instead, and you have to save him before you can get into the final dungeon.

Hexartes · 2013-09-15 14:21:44

That sounds a bit too action-y for a Zelda game. Sounds more like Fable than Zelda.

I really don't understand the notion that Zelda has to fight to be strong.

Bee · 2013-09-15 14:24:36

She doesn't really. She works pretty well as sort of the resistance mastermind too.

I just want to see it happen really well once.

Hexartes · 2013-09-15 14:26:46

Spirit Tracks did a pretty good job at it.

Miss Miko Mayonegg · 2013-09-15 15:07:25

teehee zelda sux >:3 trolololololololololololololololoololololololololololololololol

Mr. Darcy · 2013-09-15 15:07:54

The Adveture of Link established that Zelda is literally the archetypal name for princesses. "Zelda" is actually a number of different women who have been born as royalty in Hyrule. So it makes sese for one to be a pure damsel, one to be a pirate captain, one to run around as Sheik, and another to be dead.

Alduin · 2013-09-17 08:29:12

Mr. Darcy said:
The Adveture of Link established that Zelda is literally the archetypal name for princesses. "Zelda" is actually a number of different women who have been born as royalty in Hyrule. So it makes sese for one to be a pure damsel, one to be a pirate captain, one to run around as Sheik, and another to be dead.

Also, Skyward Sword establishes that literally every single Zelda is the reincarnation of the same Zelda.

And that's another problem, as I stated in the OP. LoZ has always been about archetypes, so it makes sense for the female character to be the classic submissive princess archetype.

One-Winged Eagle · 2013-09-17 09:43:22

Or perhaps maybe you could have a straight-up Zelda spin-off political RPG. You play as Zelda trying to hold on to her seat of power, with either a thinly-disguised Ganondorf or just Ganondorf trying to take it from you by proving you're no longer fit to rule to the court.

And you send Link on missions to help you get particular items to prove your worthiness, or as leverage against a courtier who's backing Ganondorf, or to otherwise sabotage Ganondorf's schemes.

Bee · 2013-09-17 14:39:34

I would so play that.

The problem being it'd pretty much have to be set during OOT, because even though people are okay with obvious reincarnations of Zelda and Link, they're gonna be pretty suspicious of scary green desert nobles named Ganondorf after that.

One-Winged Eagle · 2013-09-17 16:55:42

Well you could go with either magical disguises or Ganondorf acting through Gerudo proxies.

Tachyon · 2013-09-17 17:04:36

Inspired by Anita Sarkeesian’s Video Game Tropes vs Women, I wanted to pitch a Zelda game where Zelda herself was the hero, rescuing a Prince Link.

Clockwork Empire is set 2,000 years after Twilight Princess, and is not a reboot, but simply another iteration in the Zelda franchise. It just so happens that in this case, Zelda is the protagonist. I’m a very big Zelda fan, and worked hard to draw from key elements in the continuity and mythos.

This concept work is meant to show that Zelda as a game protagonist can be both compelling and true to the franchise, while bringing new and dynamic game elements that go farther than being a simple gender swap.

Hope you like it!

(for more info about this project, check out my FAQ)

(from here)

Yarrun XIX · 2013-09-17 17:07:59

Oh, the thing drawn by the Dresden guy?

Is this becoming an actual thing?

Salix Babylonika · 2013-09-17 17:12:01

Some people seem utterly convinced that if you reblog something hard enough it will magically materialize out of thin air.

Tachyon · 2013-09-17 17:16:13

that's an old post, i just figured it was relevent and some people might not have seen it

but note that Diaz is careful to refer to it only as a 'pitch' and 'concept art', and in any case i think he's busy with Dresden Codak atm

tho if you search for clockwork empire it's inspired some cool fanart

Salix Babylonika · 2013-09-17 17:17:38

It's just that I see things like that reblogged so often and I don't understand the point. "Look at this cool thing that will never exist ever."

Tachyon · 2013-09-17 17:19:44

i can dream

Hexartes · 2013-09-17 18:15:18

I thought it was cool at first, but now I'm kind of iffy on it. For two reasons:

1. The gameplay described doesn't sound very Zelda-y. Zelda has a pretty specific "feel," and while a lot of different kinds of games can capture it, I dunno about this concept. It seems to veer a bit too much into Action-RPG territory.

2. This version of Zelda seems just like Link, only with boobs this time.

Tachyon · 2013-09-17 18:20:22

1. really? it reminded me of the wind waker.

2. i figured that was the idea

Yarrun XIX · 2013-09-17 18:20:55

You say that like Link but with breasts is a bad thing.

Hexartes · 2013-09-17 18:23:18

1. really? it reminded me of the wind waker.

That was highly subjective, of course. Zelda means different things to different people.

2. i figured that was the idea

Then why is the character Zelda? Why is there another Link?

Because tbh, the idea of a role reversal is pretty interesting to me. But this isn't one.

Tachyon · 2013-09-17 18:25:18

not sure i follow you

she's Zelda because she's the magic princess who disguises as a ninja, and he's Link because he's the quiet adventure-seeker in green

i mean it's not like either had a hugely developed personality to begin with

Miss Miko Mayonegg · 2013-09-18 03:58:59

Neat-o!!

Viani · 2013-09-18 04:02:13

Zelda > Peach

Alduin · 2013-09-18 05:44:54

Tachyon said:

Inspired by Anita Sarkeesian’s Video Game Tropes vs Women, I wanted to pitch a Zelda game where Zelda herself was the hero, rescuing a Prince Link.

Clockwork Empire is set 2,000 years after Twilight Princess, and is not a reboot, but simply another iteration in the Zelda franchise. It just so happens that in this case, Zelda is the protagonist. I’m a very big Zelda fan, and worked hard to draw from key elements in the continuity and mythos.

This concept work is meant to show that Zelda as a game protagonist can be both compelling and true to the franchise, while bringing new and dynamic game elements that go farther than being a simple gender swap.

Hope you like it!

(for more info about this project, check out my FAQ)

(from here)

Seems way too combat-oriented. Zelda has always been about puzzles, not hitting shit till it dies/breaks.

One-Winged Eagle · 2013-09-18 06:25:00

It's that, and it's the implication that power comes from being good in a fight and violence.

That's why I suggested a politics-sim.

Alduin · 2013-09-18 10:11:29

kingCrackers said:
It's that, and it's the implication that power comes from being good in a fight and violence.

kingCrackers said:

kingCrackers said:
That's why I suggested a politics-sim.

That's...still not really Zelda. Talking about stuff, planning stratagems and occasionally paying off/coercing people aren't really my idea of puzzles.

Tachyon · 2013-09-18 10:50:51

well, a politics-sim starring Zelda would be a spin-off. in a spin-off, anything goes.

but we know that Zelda can fight, and fighting has always been a staple of the Zelda games even if that's not all there is to them.

Alduin · 2013-09-18 10:54:55

Tachyon said:
well, a politics-sim starring Zelda would be a spin-off. in a spin-off, anything goes.

Tachyon said:

Tachyon said:
but we know that Zelda can fight, and fighting has always been a staple of the Zelda games even if that's not all there is to them.

Not really, no. Link rarely has any techniques besides the basic slash-slash-slash, and if he has other techniques (e.g spinning slash) they're used as new ways to solve puzzles.

The exception, of course, is Skyward Sword, and that was its gimmick.

I'd also like to contest the "Zelda can fight" point. Zelda has always been a support character. She's never really been shown to be a competent fighter. The only time I remember her fighting was at the end of Wind Waker, and let's face it having a bow infused with sorcerous/possibly divine energy gives you a significant edge.

Tachyon · 2013-09-18 10:57:25

what about the end boss in OOT? scratch that, i'm misremembering

there's also Smash Bros, not canon but yeah

and i'm not saying the Zelda games are all about combat or that combat is the main draw, i'm just saying, there's always been frequent combat in them.

Alduin · 2013-09-18 11:00:07

what about the end boss in OOT?

That was a puzzle. An easy one, but a puzzle nonetheless.

and i'm not saying the Zelda games are all about combat or that combat is the main draw, i'm just saying, there's always been frequent combat in them.

Of course. It's only natural that a game involving swords and monsters have combat in it. It's just that combat has largely been superficial: it's used as filler for when there's nothing else to do, or as another obstacle (like fire/spike traps). The real focus is on the puzzle-working.

Tachyon · 2013-09-18 11:01:59

perfectly true

i've always preferred when the combat has been more sophisticated tho

and it's not just Skyward Sword; WW, MC and TP all had more advanced combat than the earlier titles

Alduin · 2013-09-18 11:06:31

Yeah, but the problem I have with that idea is that it focuses too much on combat.

Plus, there are lots of interesting ways that Zelda could use spells to solve puzzles. Maybe there could be blocks/doors that only a certain spell would be able to open. Maybe Zelda could turn into a shadow and activate switches that are inaccessible in her normal form. Maybe Zelda could have a fire/ice/lightning thing going on, and when the right sequence of elements is used the puzzle gets solved.

Link's mostly been limited to using spells in ways that make puzzles more convenient, not in ways that actually solve them. A sorceress character could really shake things up.

and it's not just Skyward Sword; WW, MC and TP all had more advanced combat than the earlier titles

Wind Waker, Twilight Princess and...uh, Minish Cap? Minish Cap seemed like standard Zelda fare to me...

Tachyon · 2013-09-18 11:09:11

Minish Cap

Diaz did say 'most of Zelda's magic is not aggressive' so presumably it wouldn't be primarily for combat

in any case that's just one cartoonist's idea of what would make a good Zelda game, but i think it's pretty cool

Tachyon · 2013-09-18 11:10:58

Acererak said:
Minish Cap? Minish Cap seemed like standard Zelda fare to me...

more or less, but you did have a wider array of sword techniques to choose from than in other top-down Zeldas

Zelda and feminism stuff

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