PAX Prime

Salix Babylonika · 2013-09-05 14:07:28

To move the subject out of the tumblr thread.

Personally I like PAX as an event (it gives exposure to things like Octodad, which is good) but not necessarily its organizers.

Justice4243 · 2013-09-05 14:12:40

I've only been to one PAX (the first ever).

Not really sure I feel I'm in a position to pass judgement over Jerry, Mike, and Robert. I definitely think they could have handled things better, but at the same time, they don't really get to have "meaningful dialogue" with most people who have grievances with them.

Kinda hard to deny they're responsible for a number of large, positive, impacts on the gaming community and industry. This doesn't excuse poor behavior, but at the same time, it's not really fair to generalize them as people based on their mishaps.

Justice4243 · 2013-09-05 14:19:25

Also, hey:

This is a thing.

I haven't read it, yet, but it looks relevant to recent discussions.

Justice4243 · 2013-09-05 14:23:48

Wow...

Gabe pretty much just apologized for all things Dickwolves except the initial strip, but he even has some qualifiers for THAT.

I highly suggest everyone read that link if they actually want to continue discussing this.

Hexartes · 2013-09-05 18:26:30

I don't think anyone is going to be convinced that he's not a horrible person by something as small as "genuine remorse" or "actually trying to improve."

Hexartes · 2013-09-05 18:46:56

http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.com/2013/09/dickwolfd-updated.html?m=1

This also seems fair. It's a lot more reasonable than calling them horrible people.

Justice4243 · 2013-09-05 18:59:17

I honestly don't see how Gabe here can be called a "horrible person". I know there's lots of people who probably think his "crimes" are unforgivable, but aside from some mistakes he's admitted and actively tried to repent from, I don't see much in the way of wrongdoing.

Miss Miko Mayonegg · 2013-09-05 19:33:22

I don't think that he is a horrible person and I am trans.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-09-05 19:38:53

Kexruct said:
I don't think anyone is going to be convinced that he's not a horrible person by something as small as "genuine remorse" or "actually trying to improve."

Chill out. Please. Condescension is unnecessary here.

Fossilmaiden · 2013-09-05 19:44:13

(Disclaimer, I am not calling anyone a horrible person here.)

The problem isn't just Dickwolves. As I pointed out in the tumblr thread, again and again, Mike has done this kind of stuff. Again and again he's apologised. And again and again, he's gone on to do something else like it regardless. the Tentacle Bento thing. His reaction to someone saying he should donate money to a rape charity was "you are a crazy person". He equated trivialising rape with trivialising murder, ignoring the massive social differences involved.

He says he wants PAX to be a safe place and has worked towards that. Then why, as the years go by, do more and more women say they don't feel comfortable going there?

Mike needs to realise that he's now a figurehead of the games industry, with everything that goes with it. He (along with Jerry) is one of the biggest public faces there is in the industry. Whenever stuff like this happens, it helps poison the well, if even just a little. (See: the reports on cheering after the latest stuff.) The gaming industry already has way too many problems with stuff like this as it is, and doesn't need that to be supported, even accidentally.

Justice4243 · 2013-09-05 20:31:19

It's unfortunate that he's done these things, but at the same time he regrets and works to make amends in many cases.

Honestly, it seems like people expect him never to screw up or have a perfect understanding of how he should behave and what jokes are appropriate. Trying hard to make up for making a mistake and even owning up to it is worlds better response than what we've seen from most other web-cartoonists who have caused similar faux pas. Yet, this apparently isn't enough.

And as far as the rape vs murder argument, I don't think twitter statements are a great method for determining someone's exact opinions on a subject.

That being said, I think it's more of a valid point that often gets dismissed out of hand. Murder still leaves a victim, people who have to move on after one's committed, it's seen as deplorable by society. We as a society could easily feel much worse about murder in humor if the people affected by it reacted with in a similar manner to those against Rape in humor.

Fossilmaiden · 2013-09-05 20:37:19

The difference is, stuff like victim blaming and shaming people for being a victim is a hell of a lot less common for murder than it is rape. It's still there, but its not in the spotlight. Most people can agree "murder = bad". Less do so with rape.

Justice4243 · 2013-09-05 20:40:13

I don't think anyone is going to argue that "rape = good", what I believe happens is rape is somehow subject to some sort of horrible vocabulary war of what actually constitutes rape.

That's not what Penny Arcade seems to be guilty of, here.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-09-05 20:46:05

There are other issues. The direct victim of rape tends to survive the encounter. One does not live to experience murder. Rape? Yes. Murder is about ending a life, but depending upon the person and the nature of the assault, rape can be an act of utterly ruining one. The two are apples and oranges. Additionally, rape and domestic violence are much likelier eventualities than, say, being purposefully immolated or shot in the face with an Uzi. Such things are almost fantastical; rape is not. It is for these reasons that the returns on a joke about rape (and frequently domestic abuse, animal abuse and so forth) are so rarely worth it, if at all.

Fossilmaiden · 2013-09-05 20:48:34

Justice42 said:
I don't think anyone is going to argue that "rape = good", what I believe happens is rape is somehow subject to some sort of horrible vocabulary war of what actually constitutes rape.

There's plenty of people who are willing to say stuff like "she was asking for it". That may not be "rape = good" in so many words, but it helps to cause a stigma around the whole event.

And even if there weren't, the "if she was drunk/on drugs/totally leading him on it wasn't rape" thing is enough to cause problems with trivialisation.

Justice4243 · 2013-09-05 20:51:32

I agree with the final sentence, but would like to point out that people who are murdered usually have family members who also have to live in a society that trivializes murder.

And pointing out hat rape and domestic violence are more common is pretty much a straight up argument ad populum.

Justice4243 · 2013-09-05 20:53:13

Fossilmaiden said:

Justice42 said:
I don't think anyone is going to argue that "rape = good", what I believe happens is rape is somehow subject to some sort of horrible vocabulary war of what actually constitutes rape.
There's plenty of people who are willing to say stuff like "she was asking for it". That may not be "rape = good" in so many words, but it helps to cause a stigma around the whole event.

And even if there weren't, the "if she was drunk/on drugs/totally leading him on it wasn't rape" thing is enough to cause problems with trivialisation.

Your kinda...agreeing strongly with me here. My point was I don't think Penny Arcade's attempt at humor are contributing to this sort of thing.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-09-05 20:55:53

Justice42 said:
And pointing out hat rape and domestic violence are more common is pretty much a straight up argument ad populum.

Not really, no. It's like this: How many people that you know have been gruesomely murdered in a slapstick fashion? Now, how many people that you know have been sexually harassed or assaulted?

The former is an absurdity; the latter is not.

Justice4243 · 2013-09-05 20:57:23

So rape jokes are OK if the joke is sufficiently slapstick?

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-09-05 21:02:27

That's not my point at all...

Honestly, what is your actual position on this?

Justice4243 · 2013-09-05 21:10:24

Sredni Vashtar said:
That's not my point at all...

You're comparing far-fetched murder scenarios to every day events of sexual harassment and assault. While I agree there isn't much of a comparison, I don't see how this is a helpful comparison since you've basically stacked an incredibly unlikely event against a common place one which I don't think is what's going on at all in what we're discussing

Sredni Vashtar said:

Honestly, what is your actual position on this?

I think black humor is ALWAYS going to have a victim and there are people in society who have been impacted by something that's turned into a joke elsewhere. There's no really "correct" way to use it, there's just using it and hoping your audience finds it funny.

To that extent, I believe you're correct in the position that the returns on many of these jokes simply make them not worth it, but I think that's because an author is often going to run into more trouble than the joke is worth, and not that the subject matter somehow holds some special stance of being more morally or ethically taboo on any logical level.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-09-05 21:17:58

Justice42 said:

Sredni Vashtar said:
That's not my point at all...

You're comparing far-fetched murder scenarios to every day events of sexual harassment and assault. While I agree there isn't much of a comparison, I don't see how this is a helpful comparison since you've basically stacked an incredibly unlikely event against a common place one which I don't think is what's going on at all in what we're discussing

I wasn't talking about this particular instance; I was speaking much more generally. Perhaps that should have been clearer.

Justice42 said:

Sredni Vashtar said:

Honestly, what is your actual position on this?
I think black humor is ALWAYS going to have a victim and there are people in society who have been impacted by something that's turned into a joke elsewhere. There's no really "correct" way to use it, there's just using it and hoping your audience finds it funny.

To that extent, I believe you're correct in the position that the returns on many of these jokes simply make them not worth it, but I think that's because an author is often going to run into more trouble than the joke is worth, and not that the subject matter somehow holds some special stance of being more morally or ethically taboo on any logical level.

I think that it becomes a moral issue when how much harm you are going to do to certain people in what you say outweighs any good that your words could provide. I would also like to add that not all black humour is sadistic in nature; it may be ironic or absurd just as, if not more often.

Justice4243 · 2013-09-05 21:24:35

I think that it becomes a moral issue when how much harm you are going to do to certain people in what you say outweighs any good that your words could provide.

Well how much harm vs joy a joke causes is pretty subjective here.

I don't disagree that this should be a consideration with a joke, Just that authors should be informed they've caused more harm than good from individuals rather than the screaming mass they tend to get.

...Not that I expect "people should be more rational and reasonable" to be a particularly controversial position.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-09-05 21:32:59

I don't disagree with the assertion that more reasonable critical approaches are more productive, but I do think that certain subject choices for humour are less responsible than others. For instance, while far more gratuitous, I find Monty Python's "Sam Peckinpah's Salad Days" sketch infinitely more palatable than the mass of comedies that use implied prison rape as karmic punishment.

Justice4243 · 2013-09-05 21:46:08

I do as well, and it is my personal opinion on the subjects (far-fetched and ridiculous delimbing and death vs well...PRISON RAPE) that color the humor I get out of either one, but I'm not sure I could assign moral judgment based on my opinion here even if either issue was a bit more personal.

One-Winged Eagle · 2013-09-05 21:56:45

so uh i'm really excited for octodad

Salix Babylonika · 2013-09-05 22:00:37

kingCrackers said:
so uh i'm really excited for octodad

I am excited about it because Northernlion is and I trust his opinions.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-09-05 22:01:01

^^^ I guess it boils down to the fact that how different people approach humour says things about them in one way or another. The use of gratuitous violence as a tool of absurdity says something very different to me from the trivialisation of sexual violence, and I really do not like the latter.

Salix Babylonika · 2013-09-05 22:02:22

Really I think the general problem is just that this guy has done this multiple times and does not seem to be learning from his experiences at all.

Also refusing to investigate a sexual harassment case is kind of the epitome of douchebaggery, but I've only heard about that case secondhand and don't know who was actually involved.

One-Winged Eagle · 2013-09-05 22:13:02

I played the original Octodad and I quite liked it.

Yarrun XIX · 2013-09-05 22:13:57

kingCrackers said:
I played the original Octodad and I quite liked it.

And I am in love with the song they have for the new one.

Salix Babylonika · 2013-09-05 22:16:36

more like Docktodad to be honest

Yarrun XIX · 2013-09-05 22:24:22

I do not understand your insult.

Salix Babylonika · 2013-09-05 22:25:41

it's not an insult I just have a stupid sense of humor.

Yarrun XIX · 2013-09-05 22:25:57

Then I do not understand your humor.

RocketRunner · 2013-09-05 22:27:24

Hint: nobody does.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-09-05 22:31:18

Better than Yoctodad or Proctodad...

Yarrun XIX · 2013-09-05 22:33:54

Please, help me understand.

Show me the beautiful world which you inhabit.

Salix Babylonika · 2013-09-05 22:34:30

Yarrun XIX said:
Please, help me understand.

Show me the beautiful world which you inhabit.

Yarrun XIX · 2013-09-05 22:35:11

No, the other beautiful world.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-09-05 22:37:44

^ ...you want to watch Kino's Journey with me? Oh, happy day!

Salix Babylonika · 2013-09-05 22:37:50

Pretend it's a podcast. Walla.

Hexartes · 2013-09-05 22:41:10

Mojave Music said:
Really I think the general problem is just that this guy has done this multiple times and does not seem to be learning from his experiences at all.

1. Before this, I can only think of two PA related controversies. So I wouldn't say he's done this multiple times before.
2. I don't think it's fair to say he hasn't learned anything. Because even if he has, no one's going to really notice because he's not actually doing anything for anyone to notice.And it just sort of creates a trap where if he has learned something, no one will notice, but if he slips up, the entire world will know. And that's kind of a crappy position to be in.

Salix Babylonika · 2013-09-05 22:43:26

Kexruct said:

Mojave Music said:
Really I think the general problem is just that this guy has done this multiple times and does not seem to be learning from his experiences at all.
1. Before this, I can only think of two PA related controversies. So I wouldn't say he's done this multiple times before.
2. I don't think it's fair to say he hasn't learned anything. Because even if he has, no one's going to really notice because he's not actually doing anything for anyone to notice.And it just sort of creates a trap where if he has learned something, no one will notice, but if he slips up, the entire world will know. And that's kind of a crappy position to be in.

It is the position most public figures are in.

You can blame whatever you want, but it's the reality we live in.

Yarrun XIX · 2013-09-05 22:43:29

Sredni Vashtar said:
^ ...you want to watch Kino's Journey with me? Oh, happy day!

That anime is, in fact, on the list. However, I do not understand your reference.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-09-05 22:44:57

Yarrun XIX said:

Sredni Vashtar said:
^ ...you want to watch Kino's Journey with me? Oh, happy day!
That anime is, in fact, on the list. However, I do not understand your reference.

"The world is not beautiful, therefore it is."

Justice4243 · 2013-09-06 00:58:47

Octodad seemed interesting from what I read.

Alduin · 2013-09-06 07:48:41

Sredni Vashtar said:

Sredni Vashtar said:

Honestly, what is your actual position on this?

I think black humor is ALWAYS going to have a victim and there are people in society who have been impacted by something that's turned into a joke elsewhere. There's no really "correct" way to use it, there's just using it and hoping your audience finds it funny.

I agree. You can't really use black humor in a politically correct situation. That defeats the point. Black humor is supposed to be offensive. It's only natural that people get offended by that, and there is nothing wrong with that. It's the controversy that really gives it its life.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-09-06 17:10:18

You are conflating several different things that are not at all the same. Please, don't.

Salix Babylonika · 2013-09-06 18:51:00

Acererak said:

Sredni Vashtar said:

Sredni Vashtar said:

Honestly, what is your actual position on this?

I think black humor is ALWAYS going to have a victim and there are people in society who have been impacted by something that's turned into a joke elsewhere. There's no really "correct" way to use it, there's just using it and hoping your audience finds it funny.

I agree. You can't really use black humor in a politically correct situation. That defeats the point. Black humor is supposed to be offensive. It's only natural that people get offended by that, and there is nothing wrong with that. It's the controversy that really gives it its life.

I am also familiar with the sayings of Louis CK.

Alduin · 2013-09-08 01:12:16

Sredni Vashtar said:
You are conflating several different things that are not at all the same. Please, don't.

Care to explain?

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