And the 'herd' remark gives the game away. Mindless life worship. And as for ANs not participating in suffering alleviation, plenty that I know do, so less of the assumptions, please.
Just that one phrase, "mindless life worship", makes me grit my teeth. What, are we supposed to sit around listening to Joy Division and slitting our wrists because someone, somewhere, might be suffering? I wonder if there's a such thing as "Atlas syndrome", where someone feels so compelled to feel the weight of the world upon them that it drives them bonkers.
And there's also no consideration given to the inevitable suffering and the track record of human history. The Holocaust, wars, suicides, starvation, misery, all of these things are fine as long as they don't happen to YOU and as long as you can eat your food and feel good about yourself.
STOP BRINGING UP THE GODDAMN HOLOCAUST YOU HORRENDOUS COCK
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
^^^^^^^ or @ guy who had to become a regular member of society post
Interesting to see this person "throw in the towel".
I've noticed that "pessimism" seems to be a label they accept. I find this interesting, because the general populace regards "pessimism" and "optimism" as subjective things that vary from person to person. I suppose they can make something of an argument for how pessimism "just means our eyes are open, man!" but accepting the label still seems like shooting yourself in the foot before the race has begun.
Anyhow, still lots of not nice things to say about people, but I consider "Accepting you can't just sit around and bitch about this stuff and decide you need to contribute to society" kinda failing at antinatalism. It's not quite the same as settling down and raising a family, but it's still paying bills, buying goods, contributing to taxes, providing services, etc...
You know, the sort of things that usually benefits society even if you're a Gloomy Gus while you do it.
Also, it sort of shows that this philosophy doesn't have a credence if sitting around and just talking about all the time eventully gets rejected by the body and mind even if you supposedly "KNOW" it's correct.
The philosophy certainly has some issues if it's not possible for it's own proponents to sustain it for a lengthy period of time.
^^^^ That's kinda the crux of the problem with this whole thing, ain't it? It's based on the idea that these people's observations and way they feel are somehow universal, but somehow the rest of the world has fooled itself into being happy in content.
Here's a counter point, and I'll even invoke Occam's Razor: People aren't PRETENDING to be happy and content, they just are happy and content. These guys haven't stumbled onto a truth, they're just miserable sobs.
if you can't 'make right' other cases where a victim doesn't posess adequate mental faculties to consent or disapprove, then you 'fail due hypocrisy'.
- Make right: killing someone unconscious on the belief that it's for the better.
- Make right: impregnating a comatose patient to "bless her with a child".
- Make right: pleasing a pubescent child sexually.
If you can't, then have the dignity of conceding to the requirement for informed consent.
Okay, first, you're an incredible asshole for comparing consensual human reproduction to rape or mercy killing, and if I were a mod there, you would be IP-banned. :P Second, the point still stand that people that aren't born yet CANNOT CONSENT. THEY DO NOT EXIST. Trying to insist they should would require a religious element, and while I've heard the Mormons say that children that make it to birth are spirits blessed by God to come to Earth, I seriously doubt that's what you had in mind.
Justice: Yup. Like I've said before, this is really just a manifestation of the morbid "emo" phase of being a teenager, and it seems some people never really grew out of it. Which is not to say that you can't be disillusioned with the world sometimes, but to keep on bleating that the world is doomed crap without anything to back it up except "if I had a choice in the matter, I wouldn't want to be born because I hate my life but I'll be damned if I'll admit to that" is really, really counterproductive. I think it's good that the one guy realised this and moved on.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
That's a mean way to look at it, but I can't say I think you're mistaken.
It all does sort of smell like "The world doesn't understand me and I'm mad at my dad!", don't it?
"Make right: killing someone unconscious on the belief that it's for the better."
When this happens, there usually IS consent. It's often the consent of the unconscious person made BEFORE they where put in this state.
Another part I have with this reasoning, is that it seems humans are often "mindless automatons". So, even if we could get consent, what's the consent of a "mindless automaton" really worth?
This whole thing reeks of wanting to have cake and eat it, too. The argument shifts constantly to whatever sounds good at the time.
....are amongst my least favourite kind of people.
I mean really, what is there to be so pleased about? We live in a godless, entropic universe. Science tells us that we are DNA borgs, carriers and pawns of blind bits of mindless proteins and glob. Is that really something to be thrilled about?
Justice: If I'm getting a little mean, it's only because these people frustrate me greatly. Discussing them is entertaining, sure, but...damn, does the apparent immaturity bother me. I really wish some of these people would grow up. :P
Anyway, you're right, the argument does seem to change around a lot. In Bazompora's case, he's so obsessed with the idea of getting informed consent before having a harmful or dangerous medical procedure done that he's started to conflate it with informed consent before having sex (which can be harmful or dangerous if you do it wrong, but isn't a medical procedure last I checked and does not work that way). And from there, I guess, comes his belief that somehow you should have informed consent to be born.
But still...comparing a consensual act to a non-consensual one bothers me, because it almost makes it sounds like he's arguing that consent doesn't matter, and that all sex is rape. And I hate that belief like you don't know. :P Partially because of the pessimistic assumptions, partially because it's a restatement of original sin, I could go on.
Uh-oh, did Sagredo just quote Nietzsche on the last comment? That really gets these people angry. He better batten down the hatches, whatever that means.
Why do we care about these people? You've all well demonstrated that they use less logic than a watch calculator, are generally ignorant about everything, and are whiny emos to boot.
So can I just like, inquire as to why we're still talking about them? This thread is depressing.
Fun fact: That song was one of the first songs ever played live on Saturday Night Live. The other one was "At Seventeen" by Janis Ian.
Also, I thought Bazompora was pretty far gone before, but he can't even do basic math? Generally I only start failing at math if I'm really sleepy or really angry, and I'm guessing the latter applies here.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
"If I'm getting a little mean, it's only because these people frustrate me greatly. Discussing them is entertaining, sure, but...damn, does the apparent immaturity bother me. I really wish some of these people would grow up."
That's an understandable reaction.
Especially if one is a an adult functioning in the real world, it becomes glaringly apparent these guys really don't have a great understanding of how real life works.
I don't like making fun of these people because they just seem pathetic and miserable to me. They're so insignificant and their arguments are usually so circular that having refuted the aspects of their points that are built on reason rather than subjective emotional responses, there doesn't seem any point in debating with them or paying them any attention at all other than laughing at the expense of depressives, which doesn't sit well with me.
I mean, OK, they're often horrible human beings, but they're not significant or dangerous human beings, they're just sad. I don't find that very amusing.
I don't honestly see how you could conclude that everything is awful in any objective capacity anyway.
But really, it kind of annoys me when people say utterly horrible things, and get called out for something totally tangential to the utterly horrible things they're saying.
This is a group of people who liken procreation to the Holocaust.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
I think there's some merit to analyzing why they're supporting this idea.
Obviously they didn't cook up the idea of antinatalism, but a great deal of what I've read does make it seem like the idea doesn't really come from a well thought out notion that there's a negative quality to birth. Just that they themselves wish they hadn't been born for whatever reason and now they're trying to rationalize that feeling in a way that makes them "special".
And...it's sort of hard to talk about it in a way that doesn't come off as mockery. A great deal of that is the ideas they're presenting aren't really well thought out and they're sort of being jerks about how they present it. Furthermore, it seems several of them have done a good job of externally showing they don't give a fuck about society, but that just makes their position that much harder to defend.
The echo chamber is turned this into some sort of unappealing mess.
Just making observations sounds like some sort of brutal attack, but unfortunately, that's what happens when one presents an unpopular position rather poorly.
Well yeah, but that's true for any opinion. I find it a lot more objectionable when the things being opinion...opinionated on, I suppose? Are ramblings about wanting everything to die, personally.
EVERYTHING SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS is all I really get out of this.
I mean, I do not habitually study logic, philsophy, et al. like the rest of you seem to. But I don't think I really need to to know that this is crazy.
I'm just sort of confused as to why we're all still talking about it if we agree it's crazy, but, whatevs.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
"I'm just sort of confused as to why we're all still talking about it if we agree it's crazy, but, whatevs."
There's merit analyzing arguments and showing how they're flawed, perhaps?
I suppose this is low hanging fruit, though.
It is a bit interesting to learn about this little corner of the internet, however. I'd have no idea there was a sort of antinatalist movement if it weren't for threads like this.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
"Low hanging? These are pumpkins."
Heh.Well the idea is pretty unlikable, but I'd say a few of the arguments at least sort of look like formal logic. Which does prompt the reader to look closer.
I guess that's a form of success, even if it's only getting the reader to analyse the argument so they can figure out the best way to kick it in the nads.
Comments
Just that one phrase, "mindless life worship", makes me grit my teeth. What, are we supposed to sit around listening to Joy Division and slitting our wrists because someone, somewhere, might be suffering? I wonder if there's a such thing as "Atlas syndrome", where someone feels so compelled to feel the weight of the world upon them that it drives them bonkers.
re, the entire movement:
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Okay, first, you're an incredible asshole for comparing consensual human reproduction to rape or mercy killing, and if I were a mod there, you would be IP-banned. :P Second, the point still stand that people that aren't born yet CANNOT CONSENT. THEY DO NOT EXIST. Trying to insist they should would require a religious element, and while I've heard the Mormons say that children that make it to birth are spirits blessed by God to come to Earth, I seriously doubt that's what you had in mind.
Karl has a blog by the way, which Bazompora frequents.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Uh-oh, did Sagredo just quote Nietzsche on the last comment? That really gets these people angry. He better batten down the hatches, whatever that means.
I have a question.
Why do we care about these people? You've all well demonstrated that they use less logic than a watch calculator, are generally ignorant about everything, and are whiny emos to boot.
So can I just like, inquire as to why we're still talking about them? This thread is depressing.
I'm done with the thread then, unless some people were having fun, in which case I guess Super Lazuli and Squid can just not read the thread?
IS anybody having fun ITT, besides me?
Holy hell.
You learn that's wrong in fucking ELEMENTARY SCHOOL MATH.
Here, let Billy Preston explain, Bazompora.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
I mean, OK, they're often horrible human beings, but they're not significant or dangerous human beings, they're just sad. I don't find that very amusing.
That's what bothers you most about this? Are you serious?
Not the "everything is awful and the human race should stop existing"? The faulty logic bothers you here?
I don't honestly see how you could conclude that everything is awful in any objective capacity anyway.
But really, it kind of annoys me when people say utterly horrible things, and get called out for something totally tangential to the utterly horrible things they're saying.
This is a group of people who liken procreation to the Holocaust.
So can we agree that it's meaningless to try either of those things?
Then I am going to sit here and be bothered, is what.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Fear my mild, properly-punctuated wrath.
I was just responding to squid, though.
Well yeah, but that's true for any opinion. I find it a lot more objectionable when the things being opinion...opinionated on, I suppose? Are ramblings about wanting everything to die, personally.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
EVERYTHING SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS is all I really get out of this.
I mean, I do not habitually study logic, philsophy, et al. like the rest of you seem to. But I don't think I really need to to know that this is crazy.
I'm just sort of confused as to why we're all still talking about it if we agree it's crazy, but, whatevs.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Well, it's quite easy to realize when someone else's argument is flawed. Far less so your own.
I guess learning about how the arguments of others' are flawed could make you a better debater, if you're into that sort of thing.
Low hanging? These are pumpkins.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis