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  • i wish to come up with a song lyric for this signature, but no song lyrics are coming to mind
    mario and luigi: partners in time
  • We all believe that death is bad. But why is death bad?

    In thinking about this question, I am simply going to assume that the
    death of my body is the end of my existence as a person. (If you don't
    believe me, read the first nine chapters of my book.) But if death is my
    end, how can it be bad for me to die? After all, once I'm dead, I don't
    exist. If I don't exist, how can being dead be bad for me?

    People sometimes respond that death isn't bad for the person who is dead. Death is bad for the survivors. But I don't think that can be central to what's bad about death. Compare two stories.

    Story 1. Your friend is about to go on the spaceship that is leaving
    for 100 Earth years to explore a distant solar system. By the time the
    spaceship comes back, you will be long dead. Worse still, 20 minutes
    after the ship takes off, all radio contact between the Earth and the
    ship will be lost until its return. You're losing all contact with your
    closest friend.

    Story 2. The spaceship takes off, and then 25 minutes into the flight, it explodes and everybody on board is killed instantly.

    Story 2 is worse. But why? It can't be the separation, because we had that in Story 1. What's worse is that your friend has died. Admittedly, that is worse for you, too, since you care about your friend. But that upsets you because it is bad for her to have died. But how can it be true that death is bad for the person who dies?

    In thinking about this question, it is important to be clear about
    what we're asking. In particular, we are not asking whether or how the process
    of dying can be bad. For I take it to be quite uncontroversial—and not
    at all puzzling—that the process of dying can be a painful one. But it
    needn't be. I might, after all, die peacefully in my sleep. Similarly,
    of course, the prospect of dying can be unpleasant. But that makes sense only if we consider death itself to be bad. Yet how can sheer nonexistence be bad?

    Maybe nonexistence is bad for me, not in an intrinsic way, like pain,
    and not in an instrumental way, like unemployment leading to poverty,
    which in turn leads to pain and suffering, but in a comparative way—what
    economists call opportunity costs. Death is bad for me in the
    comparative sense, because when I'm dead I lack life—more particularly,
    the good things in life. That explanation of death's badness is known as
    the deprivation account.

    Despite the overall plausibility of the deprivation account, though,
    it's not all smooth sailing. For one thing, if something is true, it
    seems as though there's got to be a time when it's true. Yet if death is
    bad for me, when is it bad for me? Not now. I'm not dead now.
    What about when I'm dead? But then, I won't exist. As the ancient Greek
    philosopher Epicurus wrote: "So death, the most terrifying of ills, is
    nothing to us, since so long as we exist, death is not with us; but when
    death comes, then we do not exist. It does not then concern either the
    living or the dead, since for the former it is not, and the latter are
    no more."

    If death has no time at which it's bad for me, then maybe it's not bad for me. Or perhaps we should challenge the assumption that all facts are datable. Could there be some facts that aren't?

    Suppose that on Monday I shoot John. I wound him with the bullet that
    comes out of my gun, but he bleeds slowly, and doesn't die until
    Wednesday. Meanwhile, on Tuesday, I have a heart attack and die. I
    killed John, but when? No answer seems satisfactory! So maybe there are undatable facts, and death's being bad for me is one of them.

    Alternatively, if all facts can be dated, we need to say when death
    is bad for me. So perhaps we should just insist that death is bad for
    me when I'm dead. But that, of course, returns us to the earlier puzzle.
    How could death be bad for me when I don't exist? Isn't it true that
    something can be bad for you only if you exist? Call this idea the existence requirement.

    Should we just reject the existence requirement? Admittedly,
    in typical cases—involving pain, blindness, losing your job, and so
    on—things are bad for you while you exist. But maybe sometimes you don't
    even need to exist for something to be bad for you. Arguably, the
    comparative bads of deprivation are like that.

    Unfortunately, rejecting the existence requirement has some
    implications that are hard to swallow. For if nonexistence can be bad
    for somebody even though that person doesn't exist, then nonexistence
    could be bad for somebody who never exists. It can be bad for somebody who is a merely possible person, someone who could have existed but never actually gets born.

    It's hard to think about somebody like that. But let's try, and let's
    call him Larry. Now, how many of us feel sorry for Larry? Probably
    nobody. But if we give up on the existence requirement, we no longer
    have any grounds for withholding our sympathy from Larry. I've got it
    bad. I'm going to die. But Larry's got it worse: He never gets any life at all.

  • Moreover, there are a lot of merely possible people. How
    many? Well, very roughly, given the current generation of seven billion
    people, there are approximately three million billion billion billion
    different possible offspring—almost all of whom will never exist! If you
    go to three generations, you end up with more possible people than
    there are particles in the known universe, and almost none of those
    people get to be born.

    If we are not prepared to say that that's a moral tragedy of
    unspeakable proportions, we could avoid this conclusion by going back to
    the existence requirement. But of course, if we do, then we're back
    with Epicurus' argument. We've really gotten ourselves into a
    philosophical pickle now, haven't we? If I accept the existence
    requirement, death isn't bad for me, which is really rather hard to
    believe. Alternatively, I can keep the claim that death is bad for me by
    giving up the existence requirement. But then I've got to say that it is a tragedy that Larry and the other untold billion billion billions are never born. And that seems just as unacceptable.

    Hmm. Maybe we've been misinterpreting the existence
    requirement. Maybe it demands less than we realize. Let's distinguish
    between two versions of the existence requirement, a bolder and a more
    modest version. Modest: Something can be bad for you only if you exist
    at some time or another. Bold: Something can be bad for you only if you exist at the same time as that thing.

    If we accept the modest requirement, then you needn't exist at the
    very same time as the bad thing. So death can be bad for me. But the
    modest version does not say that nonexistence is bad for Larry,
    too—because Larry never exists at all! In contrast, we can feel sorry
    for a child who died last week at the age of 10 because we can point out
    that she did exist, if only briefly. So the modest existence
    requirement allows us to avoid both extremes. But it, too, has some
    counterintuitive implications.

    Suppose that somebody's got a nice long life. He lives 90 years. Now,
    imagine that, instead, he lives only 50 years. That's clearly worse for
    him. And if we accept the modest existence requirement, we can indeed
    say that, because, after all, whether you live 50 years or 90 years, you
    did exist at some time or another. So the fact that you lost the 40
    years you otherwise would have had is bad for you. But now imagine that
    instead of living 50 years, the person lives only 10 years. That's worse
    still. Imagine he dies after one year. That's worse still. An hour?
    Worse still. Finally, imagine I bring it about that he never exists at
    all. Oh, that's fine.

    Wait. How can that be fine? But that's the implication of accepting
    the modest existence requirement. If I shorten the life someone would
    have had so completely that he never gets born at all (or, more
    precisely, never comes into existence at all), then he doesn't satisfy
    the requirement of having existed at some time or another. So, although
    we were making things worse and worse as we shortened the life, when we
    finally snipped out that last little fraction of a second, it turns out
    we didn't make things worse at all. Now we haven't done anything
    objectionable. That, it seems, is what you've got to say if you accept
    the modest existence requirement.



  • Of course, if we didn't have an existence requirement at all, we
    could say that it is indeed worst of all never to have been born. But if
    you do say that, then you're back to feeling sorry for Larry and the
    unborn billion billions.

    Then there's a puzzle raised by the Roman philosopher Lucretius, who
    thought it a mistake to find the prospect of my death upsetting. Yes, as
    the deprivation account points out, after death we can't enjoy life's
    pleasures. But wait a minute, says Lucretius. The time after I die isn't
    the only period during which I won't exist. What about the period before my
    birth? If nonexistence is so bad, shouldn't I be upset by the eternity
    of nonexistence before I was born? But that's silly, right? Nobody is
    upset about that. So, he concludes, it doesn't make any sense to be
    upset about the eternity of nonexistence after you die, either.

    It isn't clear how best to reply to Lucretius. One option,
    presumably, is to agree that we really do need to treat those two
    eternities of nonexistence on a par, but to insist that our prebirth
    nonexistence was worse than we thought. Alternatively, we might insist
    that there's an asymmetry that explains why we should care about the one
    period but not the other. But what is that difference? Perhaps this:
    When I die, I have lost my life. In contrast, during the eternity before my birth, although I'm not alive, I have not lost anything. You can't lose what you never had. So what's worse about death is the loss.

    But in that prenatal period, although I don't have life, I'm going to
    get it. As it happens, we don't have a name for that state. It is
    similar to loss but not quite like it. Let's call it "schmoss." Why do
    we care more about loss of life than schmoss of life?
    It's easy to overlook the symmetry, because we've got this nice word
    "loss," and we don't have the word "schmoss." But that's not really
    explaining anything, it's just pointing to the thing that needs
    explaining.

    Thomas Nagel, a contemporary philosopher, suggests that although it's
    possible to imagine living longer, it isn't actually possible to come
    into existence earlier. The date of my death is a contingent fact about
    me. But the date of my birth is not.

    But does that answer Lucretius' puzzle? In some cases, I think, we can easily
    imagine the possibility of having come into existence earlier. Suppose
    we've got a fertility clinic that has some sperm on hold and has some
    eggs on hold. Perhaps they keep them there frozen until they're ready to
    use them. And they thaw a pair out in, say, 2025. They fertilize the
    egg, and eventually the person is born. That person, it seems to me, can
    correctly say that he could have come into existence earlier.

    If that's right, then Nagel is wrong in saying it's not possible to
    imagine being born earlier. Yet, if we imagine somebody like that and we
    ask, "Would they be upset that they weren't born earlier?," it still
    seems as though most people would say, "No, of course not." So Nagel's
    solution to our puzzle doesn't seem adequate.

    Fred Feldman, another contemporary philosopher, offers another
    possible answer. If I say, "If only I would die later," what am I
    imagining? Instead of my living a "mere" 80 years, I would live to be 85
    or 90 or more. But what do I imagine when I say, "If only I had been
    born earlier"? According to Feldman, you don't actually imagine a longer life, you just shift
    the entire life and start it earlier. And of course there is nothing
    about having a life that takes place earlier that makes it particularly
    better. So, Feldman says, it's no wonder that you care about
    nonexistence after death in a way that you don't care about nonexistence
    before birth. When you imagine birth coming earlier, you don't imagine
    more goods in your life, you just imagine them taking place at a
    different time.

    But while that helps, I don't think it completely solves the puzzle,
    because we can in fact imagine cases in which the person thinks that if
    only she had been born earlier, she would have had a longer
    life. Say astronomers discover that on January 1, an asteroid will land
    on Earth and wipe out all life. Someone 30 years old might reasonably
    think to herself that if she'd only been born 10 years earlier, she
    would have lived longer.

    When I think about the asteroid example, I wonder if symmetry is
    possibly the right way to go here after all. Maybe in a case like this,
    the relevant bit of prenatal nonexistence is just as bad as a corresponding bit of post-mortem nonexistence.

    There's one more answer to Lucretius that's been proposed, by yet
    another contemporary philosopher, Derek Parfit. Recall that even though
    nonexistence before birth doesn't involve loss, it does involve schmoss.
    So it would be helpful if we had an explanation of why we care more
    about loss than schmoss. Parfit's idea, in effect, is that this
    preference is part of a quite general and deep pattern humans have of
    caring about the future in a way that we don't care about the past. So
    perhaps that's what we should tell Lucretius.

    Unfortunately, while our asymmetrical attitude toward time may
    explain our indifference to our prenatal existence, we might still
    wonder whether it gives us any kind of justification for it. The fact that we've got this deep-seated asymmetrical attitude doesn't necessarily mean it's rational.

    So is death bad for you? I certainly think so, and I think the
    deprivation account is on the right track for telling us why. But I have
    to admit: Puzzles still remain.



    Source.

  • I've learned to tolerate drama...except on the boat
    IMAGE SONGS
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    IMAGE SNOGS
  • I've learned to tolerate drama...except on the boat
    DIPSUT SNOGS
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    the calliope crashed to the ground
  • TUMUT CREW REPRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tumut
    tumut
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    the tumut crashed to the ground
  • TUMUT CREW REPRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tumut
    tumut
  • CONTINUITY!

    I mean

    tumut
  • TUMUT CREW REPRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tumut
    tumut
  • tumut
  • TUMUT CREW REPRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tumut
    tumut
  • tumut
  • TUMUT CREW REPRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tumut
    tumut
  • Touch the cow. Do it now.
    Why is time apparently asymmetrical? I need to ask Her this.
  • tumut
  • TUMUT CREW REPRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tumut
    tumut
  • edited 2012-07-30 12:40:52

    turbulence is certainty turbulence is friction between you and me
    suffering and pain crystallised in a brain that recreates the process again
    draws borders, cites laws monopolies of food and trade start wars
    every time we try to impose order we create chaos we create chaos - breakdown
    i have my doubts
    a state of eternal conflict is all i have found
    we build a wall that is made of tears watch the house fall down
    and at the end of my life
    yes at the end of my life
    all shall be well all is as it was always meant to be...
    blessed are the meek it is written they shall inherit the earth
    watch her dying of cancer after a lifetime of caring for the poor
    child with her arms blown off screams as she bleeds upon the rocks
    sickened by my self-flagellation but i don't know how to stop
    where is your love, my loving god? - breakdown
    i have my doubts
    [this base stand of filth] and the people around
    we build a wall that is made of tears watch the house fall down
    and at the end of my life
    yes at the end of my life
    all shall be well all is as it was always meant to be...
    globalism and the u.n. neutralised by ethnic cleansing
    animal aggression and a mind to perceive this terminal conflict
    awareness is a curse - the more you open your eyes the more you despise
    fashioned in the creator's yolk
    it must be some sort of practical joke
    and in the corn, circles of chaos - breakdown
  • Touch the cow. Do it now.
    Like!
  • Touch the cow. Do it now.
    Ew.
  • Remember back in the 50s when they'd record like Elvis singing YOU AIN'T NOTHIN BUT A HOUND DOG and then they'd turn the record over and reverse it and it was all NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP and people were all like, "That is actually the voice of Satan coming from that song."
    If something smells, it's usually the Butz.
  • ^^You leave butts alone. Even if they are one of the more ugly parts of the human body.
  • Touch the cow. Do it now.
    Is that Dave Mustaine's house?
  • Touch the cow. Do it now.

    ^^You leave butts alone.

    I do, I assure you.

    ...

    heh heh, ASSure
  • Is that Dave Mustaine's house?

    Iunno, but that's his pony next to him.
  • tumut
  • TUMUT CREW REPRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tumut
    tumut
  • i wish to come up with a song lyric for this signature, but no song lyrics are coming to mind

    FUS RO TUMUT

    image

  • TUMUT CREW REPRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tumut
    lol

    tumut
  • XXXXD

    tumut
  • TUMUT CREW REPRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tumut
    tumut
  • i wish to come up with a song lyric for this signature, but no song lyrics are coming to mind
    You see those warriors from Alternia? They’ve got curved tumuts. Curved. Tumuts.
  • edited 2012-07-30 15:33:21
    i wish to come up with a song lyric for this signature, but no song lyrics are coming to mind
    imageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimage
  • ok that is cute.

    tumut
  • edited 2012-07-30 15:41:13
    Remember back in the 50s when they'd record like Elvis singing YOU AIN'T NOTHIN BUT A HOUND DOG and then they'd turn the record over and reverse it and it was all NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP and people were all like, "That is actually the voice of Satan coming from that song."
    D'aww, the bunnies are so numerous that they look like they're making a checkerboard pattern on the screen.
  • 8unnies, 8unnies, it must 8e 8UNNIES!

    ........

    tumut
  • TUMUT CREW REPRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tumut
    Bunny stampede!

    tumut
  • i wish to come up with a song lyric for this signature, but no song lyrics are coming to mind

    "My king, the bunny forces are continuing their unrelenting march to the keep. What are your commands?"

    "We fight. Gather your troops. We shall attack on the morrow."


  • tumut
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022

    Why is time apparently asymmetrical? I need to ask Her this.

    I read this as:
    Why is time apparently asymmetrical? I need to ask Her tits.
  • TUMUT CREW REPRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tumut
    tumut
  • tumut
  • i wish to come up with a song lyric for this signature, but no song lyrics are coming to mind
    *exsanguin8s tumut*
  • Never be with0ut a Hat!
    (2010 self)
    Apparent topology.
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