actually both sides are wrong

Salix Babylonika · 2016-12-12 01:11:25

:I cast animate dead on a corpse: you see the paladins are hypocritical sometimes so this is ok

Obā-san · 2016-12-12 01:13:41

i never got why necromancy was supposed to be inherently evil

Odradek · 2016-12-12 01:14:29

Because it is v. spoopy

Tatterhood · 2016-12-12 01:15:06

Respect for the dead or whatever I guess.

Salix Babylonika · 2016-12-12 01:16:55

Tamlin said:
i never got why necromancy was supposed to be inherently evil

this has also actually always bothered me

I think the real reason it's evil in D&D is that having your wizard raise hordes of the fearless dead is even more overpowered than the wizard is normally and it was a feeble attempt to keep necromancy out of PC hands.

and then everybody else just copied D&D

Yarrun XIX · 2016-12-12 01:43:59

Remember that the cleric class only came about because someone was playing a vampire character and Gygax needed a counter for it.

Salix Babylonika · 2016-12-12 01:50:39

I feel like Gygax' sessions were more interesting than many peoples'.

Yarrun XIX · 2016-12-12 02:01:37

The same way that Tolkien was better than the mryriad of camp followers, yes

Yarrun XIX · 2016-12-12 02:04:02

I think I mentioned this the last time non-evil necromancers came up, but if you make a culture that does away with the sanctity of the dead, or sets it up in a different way, there's a lot of utility in necromancers.

It'd be the fantasy version of automation.

eriophora zia · 2016-12-12 20:43:14

I think most people have an inherent discomfort with the idea of seeing their loved ones become soulless, mindless slaves, honestly. Impersonal necromancy? Sure, whatever. When it's your mom/brother/relative? Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Salix Babylonika · 2016-12-12 20:49:39

how often does that come up in your typical dungeon crawl, though

Fossilmaiden · 2016-12-12 21:18:06

It's the whole cultural thing of desecration of the dead. You wouldn't go around chopping off the heads of random inanimate corpses unless you're A) performing a very odd autopsy or B) kind of a huge dick. Turning them into murderous horrorbeasts isn't really an improvement on that.

eriophora zia · 2016-12-12 21:23:42

Jane said:
how often does that come up in your typical dungeon crawl, though

Mostly I'm just using it to explain why necromancy tends to be labeled bad/evil. If all necromancy was impersonal, then it could be a neutral power. It's one of those things that tends to just have that fundamental discomfort underneath, when considering that it could be used on someone you know.

Though, it would make for some interesting situations where someone nominally good but trained in necromancy is backed into a corner and forced to resurrect a fallen friend/comrade.

Crystal · 2016-12-12 21:24:28

Actually necromancy is inherently Good Good (Good), and

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-12-12 21:45:47

Necromancy, in a historical context, referred to raising the spirits of the dead for the purpose of using them as oracles, whether to give clues to the future or uncover hidden truths in the past or present. The Witch of Endor in the Bible is a good example of a traditional necromancer; for a more contemporary example, John Dee purported to be one. In any case, the taboo comes from Christianity's very disapproving attitude towards mystical traditions and particularly the notion of commanding good or evil souls from the places to which God had consigned them, thus viewing necromancy as gussied-up consortium with demons posing as the dead to sew lies and discord.

Which is to say that mediaeval Christians were no fun and also a bit hypocritical with the whole mystic powers thing. Big shocker there.

Salix Babylonika · 2016-12-12 21:48:43

I am gonna send skeletons after all of you

Klinotaxis · 2016-12-12 21:56:10

They're just a bunch of friggin glorified taxidermists.

Yarrun XIX · 2016-12-12 22:13:36

eriophora zia said:
I think most people have an inherent discomfort with the idea of seeing their loved ones become soulless, mindless slaves, honestly. Impersonal necromancy? Sure, whatever. When it's your mom/brother/relative? Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Fossilmaiden said:
It's the whole cultural thing of desecration of the dead. You wouldn't go around chopping off the heads of random inanimate corpses unless you're A) performing a very odd autopsy or B) kind of a huge dick. Turning them into murderous horrorbeasts isn't really an improvement on that.

Well, yeah, in our culture. But there's no reason that literally 95% of fantasy cultures happen to have the exact same taboos as we do.

Salix Babylonika · 2016-12-12 22:16:01

Jane said:
I am gonna send skeletons after all of you

Yarrun XIX · 2016-12-12 22:19:03

Dammit Jane, I'm on your side.

Salix Babylonika · 2016-12-12 22:21:13

skeletons

Crystal · 2016-12-12 22:22:42

Klinotaxis said:
They're just a bunch of friggin glorified taxidermists.

How dare you.

Fossilmaiden · 2016-12-12 22:24:38

Yarrun XIX said:

eriophora zia said:
I think most people have an inherent discomfort with the idea of seeing their loved ones become soulless, mindless slaves, honestly. Impersonal necromancy? Sure, whatever. When it's your mom/brother/relative? Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Fossilmaiden said:
It's the whole cultural thing of desecration of the dead. You wouldn't go around chopping off the heads of random inanimate corpses unless you're A) performing a very odd autopsy or B) kind of a huge dick. Turning them into murderous horrorbeasts isn't really an improvement on that.
Well, yeah, in our culture. But there's no reason that literally 95% of fantasy cultures happen to have the exact same taboos as we do.

I mean, there's a lot of distinct cultures with that taboo though? It's hardly a localised thing.

Salix Babylonika · 2016-12-12 22:29:33

S K E L E T O N S

Fossilmaiden · 2016-12-12 22:31:02

Skeletons are barely a threat anyway. I mean, really now. I throw something at them and they fall apart.

Crystal · 2016-12-12 22:33:18

I guess you could say that if you fight with them, you're pretty boned.

Klinotaxis · 2016-12-12 22:33:19

Depends on how the bones are connected together

You know

Taxidermically

Crystal · 2016-12-12 22:33:34

Klinotaxis said:
Depends on how the bones are connected together

You know

Taxidermically

Prepares to end you

Klinotaxis · 2016-12-12 22:36:10

And what are you gonna do with the body, eh

Stuffed flies don't go for much

Crystal · 2016-12-12 22:37:20

Hang it on my mantle and then ask Centie to cure your suffering so I can do it all over again.

Fossilmaiden · 2016-12-12 22:37:21

Fishing. Duh.

Yarrun XIX · 2016-12-12 22:38:32

Fossilmaiden said:

Yarrun XIX said:

eriophora zia said:
I think most people have an inherent discomfort with the idea of seeing their loved ones become soulless, mindless slaves, honestly. Impersonal necromancy? Sure, whatever. When it's your mom/brother/relative? Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Fossilmaiden said:
It's the whole cultural thing of desecration of the dead. You wouldn't go around chopping off the heads of random inanimate corpses unless you're A) performing a very odd autopsy or B) kind of a huge dick. Turning them into murderous horrorbeasts isn't really an improvement on that.
Well, yeah, in our culture. But there's no reason that literally 95% of fantasy cultures happen to have the exact same taboos as we do.
I mean, there's a lot of distinct cultures with that taboo though? It's hardly a localised thing.

Fantasy cultures have no reason to look like anything that exists.

Yarrun XIX · 2016-12-12 22:39:56

The entire range of possibility is open to you, but you just want to keep going back to a world where people don't magically control the dead to do their bidding

Tanya · 2016-12-12 22:40:30

Did somebody say Skeletons?!?!

Anonus · 2016-12-12 22:45:03

Sredni Vashtar said:
Which is to say that mediaeval Christians were no fun

yup

Bee · 2016-12-12 22:53:37

Tamlin said:
i never got why necromancy was supposed to be inherently evil

Healing spells used to be classed as necromancy, which makes a hell of a lot more sense than Conjuration.

IIRC there was some noise in 5e about maybe bringing it back to necro.

also

eriophora zia · 2016-12-12 23:50:07

I dunno man, I feel like there's something universal about feeling horrified at the thought of seeing your loved one's dead body up and roaming about.

Maybe it'd be fine if you had a blind psychic species or something

Salix Babylonika · 2016-12-12 23:53:20

I mean D&D also has like mind flayers who are squid-headed people that eat brains and can't feel positive emotions.

Fossilmaiden · 2016-12-12 23:56:42

And they also don't have any taboos on necromancy because they are brain eating aberrations from the Underdark.

Salix Babylonika · 2016-12-12 23:57:22

skeletons

Fossilmaiden · 2016-12-12 23:58:14

no they are not skeletons

Yarrun XIX · 2016-12-13 00:00:39

eriophora zia said:
I dunno man, I feel like there's something universal about feeling horrified at the thought of seeing your loved one's dead body up and roaming about.

Maybe it'd be fine if you had a blind psychic species or something

Who says they work nearby?

Maybe when the death happens, if the corpse is in well enough condition, you have the funeral and send the coffin off to the necromancer, and every few months, you get a heartfelt letter from the necromancer about how your father's sacrifice has helped build a wall that will protect the city from the orcs, or constructed a canal that will provide clean water to the city, even in times of siege, or was used as a test dummy for magical studies that will ensure better abjuration magic, protecting all the alive workers that work on civil projects. And when the corpse is too worn out to continue serving, the death mage sends either the remains or the ashes back (you fill out a form selecting what you want when you send the corpse over), and you bury those.

And hell, people give their bodies to science and donate organs all the time. It's not that weird, you guys. Now accept it so I don't have to keep talking about corpses.

Salix Babylonika · 2016-12-13 00:09:49

I am never going to make another thread again

Odradek · 2016-12-13 00:22:08

I don't think Mind Flayers have skeletons

I think they have cartilage

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-12-13 00:30:23

Jane said:
I am never going to make another thread again

I kind of hope this is tongue-in-cheek because I like derails that aren't miserable or revolving around personal bugbears.

Crystal · 2016-12-13 00:31:10

How can you be tongue-in-cheek when you only have bones.

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-12-13 00:33:04

>insert LORD ENGLISH joke here

Odradek · 2016-12-13 00:36:03

Sredni Vashtar said:

Jane said:
I am never going to make another thread again
I kind of hope this is tongue-in-cheek because I like derails that aren't miserable or revolving around personal bugbears.

glennmagusharvey · 2016-12-13 04:36:41

Yarrun XIX said:

eriophora zia said:
I think most people have an inherent discomfort with the idea of seeing their loved ones become soulless, mindless slaves, honestly. Impersonal necromancy? Sure, whatever. When it's your mom/brother/relative? Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Fossilmaiden said:
It's the whole cultural thing of desecration of the dead. You wouldn't go around chopping off the heads of random inanimate corpses unless you're A) performing a very odd autopsy or B) kind of a huge dick. Turning them into murderous horrorbeasts isn't really an improvement on that.
Well, yeah, in our culture. But there's no reason that literally 95% of fantasy cultures happen to have the exact same taboos as we do.

yes reason because they were made by modern-day westerners or copied from their works

glennmagusharvey · 2016-12-13 04:40:00

Fossilmaiden said:

Yarrun XIX said:
Well, yeah, in our culture. But there's no reason that literally 95% of fantasy cultures happen to have the exact same taboos as we do.
I mean, there's a lot of distinct cultures with that taboo though? It's hardly a localised thing.

y'know come to think of it fantasy anime and fantasy video games haven't done enough to explore culture differences without implying that one of them is clearly worse than the other

Bee · 2016-12-13 06:00:20

For an example of "good necromancy", Dia de Muertos.

actually both sides are wrong

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