Why do gamers have such a bat in their belfries about QTEs

Odradek · 2016-06-19 15:06:35

?

Alduin · 2016-06-19 15:18:24

They're overused and a cheap way of trying to convince us that we're doing something when we're really just watching a cutscene while pressing buttons.

Odradek · 2016-06-19 15:23:07

Alduin said:
They're overused and a cheap way of trying to convince us that we're doing something when we're really just watching a cutscene while pressing buttons.

This is ultimately true of all video games

Alduin · 2016-06-19 15:25:14

not really, no

MadassAlex · 2016-06-19 15:33:25

QTEs have their place, which is adding tension to actions that otherwise wouldn't be described by the general gameplay. That's their problem, too; if QTEs represent actions outside of gameplay, a game with an excessive amounts of QTEs might have too little gameplay to represent its content.

At best, they add simple interactivity to otherwise noninteractive game elements. But they can also just add a frustrating fail state to those sequences.

tl;dr Not every game's cut scenes require rhythm game elements.

Odradek · 2016-06-19 15:45:04

MadassAlex said:
QTEs have their place, which is adding tension to actions that otherwise wouldn't be described by the general gameplay. That's their problem, too; if QTEs represent actions outside of gameplay, a game with an excessive amounts of QTEs might have too little gameplay to represent its content.

At best, they add simple interactivity to otherwise noninteractive game elements. But they can also just add a frustrating fail state to those sequences.

tl;dr Not every game's cut scenes require rhythm game elements.

Use your words

Odradek · 2016-06-19 15:49:38

Aside from that you make a good point

Fossilmaiden · 2016-06-19 15:55:53

Odradek said:

MadassAlex said:
QTEs have their place, which is adding tension to actions that otherwise wouldn't be described by the general gameplay. That's their problem, too; if QTEs represent actions outside of gameplay, a game with an excessive amounts of QTEs might have too little gameplay to represent its content.

At best, they add simple interactivity to otherwise noninteractive game elements. But they can also just add a frustrating fail state to those sequences.

tl;dr Not every game's cut scenes require rhythm game elements.
Use your words

That's their problem, too; if QTEs represent actions outside of gameplay, a game with an excessive amounts of QTEs might have too little gameplay to represent its nature.

That's their problem, too; if QTEs represent actions outside of gameplay, a game with an excessive amounts of QTEs might have too little gameplay to represent its medium.

That's their problem, too; if QTEs represent actions outside of gameplay, a game with an excessive amounts of QTEs might have too little gameplay to represent its pudding.

That's their problem, too; if QTEs represent actions outside of gameplay, a game with an excessive amounts of QTEs might have too little gameplay to represent its study into the demographic of groups interested in a post-naturalistic mechanical tragedy.

Like, seriously, what are you even getting at here?

MadassAlex · 2016-06-19 16:06:12

Resident Evil 4 has this QTE knife fight in it. The rest of the game's mechanics are horrible at representing combat with non-projectile weapons, so a knife fight through literal gameplay would be clunky and tedious. This QTE itself is pretty long and punishes any incorrect input with death, being well short of a perfect solution, but it does allow the game to represent something that isn't included in the gameplay systems while having (simple) interaction.

So if you've got a platformer game, and it has QTEs that platform, that's bad 'cause you're supposed to use the mechanics for that. A game that is using QTEs for a wide range of different things might want to rethink its basic gameplay, because otherwise it's stringing cutscenes of lots of basic environmental interactions. Using the occasional QTE to keep the player on their toes is okay.

Odradek · 2016-06-19 16:09:56

Fossilmaiden said:

Odradek said:

MadassAlex said:
QTEs have their place, which is adding tension to actions that otherwise wouldn't be described by the general gameplay. That's their problem, too; if QTEs represent actions outside of gameplay, a game with an excessive amounts of QTEs might have too little gameplay to represent its content.

At best, they add simple interactivity to otherwise noninteractive game elements. But they can also just add a frustrating fail state to those sequences.

tl;dr Not every game's cut scenes require rhythm game elements.
Use your words
That's their problem, too; if QTEs represent actions outside of gameplay, a game with an excessive amounts of QTEs might have too little gameplay to represent its nature.

That's their problem, too; if QTEs represent actions outside of gameplay, a game with an excessive amounts of QTEs might have too little gameplay to represent its medium.

That's their problem, too; if QTEs represent actions outside of gameplay, a game with an excessive amounts of QTEs might have too little gameplay to represent its pudding.

That's their problem, too; if QTEs represent actions outside of gameplay, a game with an excessive amounts of QTEs might have too little gameplay to represent its study into the demographic of groups interested in a post-naturalistic mechanical tragedy.

Like, seriously, what are you even getting at here?

Look at which word I bolded

LOAD Cherry · 2016-06-19 16:23:07

Crystal · 2016-06-19 16:23:16

Now I'm just imagining eating pudding like a QTE, and naturally having the drama of, like, Death Note.

Odradek · 2016-06-19 16:27:00

It's a fake word for corporate drones to use to describe the artistic equivalent of Soylent

Fossilmaiden · 2016-06-19 16:30:12

Danger: Puddings may be flammable.

LOAD Cherry · 2016-06-19 16:33:45

It's also a real word that has an actual meaning which was used in its correct context here, so apply some calm balm.

Odradek · 2016-06-19 16:35:33

No it doesn't.

It just means "indeterminate stuff in a thing"

People talk about content, and how much content is in a game, and how DLCs will add content, and then are genuinely perplexed when the latest Ubisoft game is an overstuffed mess full of samey bullshit.

Princess Alice · 2016-06-19 16:36:25

ITT: Odradek's discontent

Fossilmaiden · 2016-06-19 16:36:33

Would it kill you to not be willfully obtuse for just one damn minute?

Odradek · 2016-06-19 16:38:37

Whatever.

I have long since lost the fight against this verbal degradation in the larger world, so I was at least hoping to have some effect on a small microcosm I inhabit, but I guess that's just too fucking much to ask and I should just stop this too.

LOAD Cherry · 2016-06-19 16:40:04

It would help if you weren't condescending about it.

Crystal · 2016-06-19 16:42:22

Odradek said:
corporate drones to use to describe the artistic equivalent of Soylent

Yeah I hate that, we all hate that, so could you seriously, please, give us the BOFD when we use it? We're not idiots and know quite well how it's used, but acting like only your way is the correct way and we're all just going along with it is downright tiresome.

Like, I suppose "action" or "story" or whatnot also could have applied, sure. Granted those would run the risk of theoretically being too narrow in scope, but I'd get it. Much like how I get it with this word.

MadassAlex · 2016-06-19 16:45:37

I used the word "content" because it seemed better than "stuff".

Imipolex G · 2016-06-19 16:58:37

CONTENT

Anyway, QTEs are lame-o because they barely qualify as gameplay. Gimme actual gameplay, ok? Not this "interactive movie" bullshit

Tachyon · 2016-06-19 18:13:41

We could swap out "content" for "subject matter" in Alex's sentence and it would mean roughly the same thing.

"More content" just means the game is longer, there's more stuff to do, more little dudes to kill or whatever. Whatever you want to call it, it's clearly a mistake to assume more is automatically better. i don't think the problem really lies with the word used, the problem lies in the reducing of a work of fiction to a product, with the apparent assumption that consuming more of it will make the experience more meaningful and more fulfilling.

That said, meaningful and fulfilling experiences are exceedingly hard to come by, and the rest of the time, i like my comfort food. i don't consider my life enriched for having sunk hours into samey quests on Skyrim or grinding in Hyrule Warriors, it's a mindless way to kill time, but i'd be lying if i said i didn't enjoy it.

Anyway, QTEs are kinda irritating cuz if i want to watch a cutscene i don't wanna be pressing buttons part way through it. i guess there's probably contexts where QTEs are fun but i can't really think of any i liked and i don't really mind regular cutscenes that much to begin with, so long as they're not too long.

Odradek said:

Alduin said:
They're overused and a cheap way of trying to convince us that we're doing something when we're really just watching a cutscene while pressing buttons.
This is ultimately true of all video games

That's an idea memorably expressed in The Stanley Parable.

i feel it serves as its own rebuttal, perhaps inadvertantly. The game was an amusing diversion. There's no challenge involved and no potential for creative roleplay. There's an initial promise of exploration which is quickly exhausted once you complete every short route through a set of office corridors. In order to make a game about open world games being bland, empty experiences, they had to omit all the parts that make open world games fun.

Hexartes · 2016-06-19 18:37:36

MY LONG AWAITED ASSESSMENT IS that video games can have whatever fucking mechanics they want if they're implemented well

I really could not even begin to understand why QTEs have become so controversial

Also Metroid Prime: Federation Force looks fun and yes I think people are freaking out over nothing there too

Section42L · 2016-06-19 18:39:24

Metroid got taken away from Yoshio Sakamoto again.

I thought that's what people wanted. Why are they bitching?

Tatterhood · 2016-06-19 18:43:16

it's true, all human beings in the world want the exact same thing from the next Metroid™ video game, and also simultaneously do not want that thing

Tachyon · 2016-06-19 18:45:08

"implemented well" is vague though

like i'm not saying they automatically suck but, alright, question: what's an example of a good QTE?

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-06-19 18:48:39

Tachyon said:
"implemented well" is vague though

like i'm not saying they automatically suck but, alright, question: what's an example of a good QTE?

Cheating here, but... Undertale, No Mercy. You probably know what I'm talking about.

Forcing a choice between doing something repellant and simply opting out at the last minute can be quite significant.

Section42L · 2016-06-19 18:49:03

Tatterhood said:
it's true, all human beings in the world want the exact same thing from the next Metroid™ video game, and also simultaneously do not want that thing

Well, I would prefer it to be side-scrolling myself, but it's hard to express that opinion without coming off as a grognard.

Since that's not realistic, I'm just glad to see him gone from the franchise again.

I am legit curious what peoples' beefs are with this game, because with him gone I assume this isn't going to repeat Other M's mistakes.

Imipolex G · 2016-06-19 18:52:02

I want another 2D sidescrolling Metroid and as such I am raising hell over this development

Fossilmaiden · 2016-06-19 18:53:12

You will get a 1D Metroid and like it.

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-06-19 18:53:56

Flatland: Other M.

Klinotaxis · 2016-06-19 18:56:06

Why do gamers even have bats, metaphorical or no

Sredni Vashtar said:

Tachyon said:
"implemented well" is vague though

like i'm not saying they automatically suck but, alright, question: what's an example of a good QTE?

Cheating here, but... Undertale, No Mercy. You probably know what I'm talking about.

Forcing a choice between doing something repellant and simply opting out at the last minute can be quite significant.

is that not just an extension of the established gameplay

Imipolex G · 2016-06-19 19:03:05

Section42L said:

Tatterhood said:
it's true, all human beings in the world want the exact same thing from the next Metroid™ video game, and also simultaneously do not want that thing
Well, I would prefer it to be side-scrolling myself, but it's hard to express that opinion without coming off as a grognard.

Since that's not realistic, I'm just glad to see him gone from the franchise again.

I am legit curious what peoples' beefs are with this game, because with him gone I assume this isn't going to repeat Other M's mistakes.

It's a multiplayer FPS with chibi-looking graphics. None of the usual exploration is present and you don't play as Samus.

Fans aren't taking this well

Section42L · 2016-06-19 19:04:44

Okay, I get it now.

I should've looked it up before I started shooting my mouth off, I'm sorry.

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-06-19 19:08:35

Klinotaxis said:
Why do gamers even have bats, metaphorical or no
Sredni Vashtar said:

Tachyon said:
"implemented well" is vague though

like i'm not saying they automatically suck but, alright, question: what's an example of a good QTE?

Cheating here, but... Undertale, No Mercy. You probably know what I'm talking about.

Forcing a choice between doing something repellant and simply opting out at the last minute can be quite significant.

is that not just an extension of the established gameplay

I'm thinking of a very specific example here, although the forced hand thing as a whole is definitely within keeping here.

Klinotaxis · 2016-06-19 19:11:17

I don't know what you are referring to then

Obā-san · 2016-06-19 19:12:54

Odradek said:
It's a fake word for corporate drones to use to describe the artistic equivalent of Soylent

this is ultimately true of all words

Hexartes · 2016-06-19 19:15:03

Tachyon said:
"implemented well" is vague though

like i'm not saying they automatically suck but, alright, question: what's an example of a good QTE?

Well that's kind of my problem! It's a completely inane line of Gaming Discourse. It'd be like if there was a massive contingent of film buffs who insist that any handheld camera shot is automatically just a stupid gimmick to create audience emotion out of nothing substantial. Like, how do you even dispute that?

Imipolex G · 2016-06-19 19:16:21

I hate handheld camera shots

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-06-19 19:16:47

Spoiler:

"I can help... I can...

"I can...

"Please don't kill me."

>ENTER

Hexartes · 2016-06-19 19:17:35

Like okay obviously Heavy Rain and the rest of David Cage's work ain't great

but those games have numerous flaws aside from the QTEs. It's not like if they removed every QTE from Heavy Rain, or at least made them actually have an impact on the game (a lot of them affect literally nothing except the cutscene's animation) it'd get rid of the much more pressing flaws of bad writing.

Hexartes · 2016-06-19 19:19:24

And if I were to come up with an example of "good" QTEs, I'd probably use something like the Interrupts from Mass Effect, which you may recognize as a mechanic containing all the problems that have been raised with QTEs in other games but curiously no one complains because Mass Effect is a well written series.

Hexartes · 2016-06-19 19:23:23

Actually Mass Effect is a good example of what my problem with this kind of discourse is

In Mass Effect 1 a lot of loading times were disguised by elevators and such, and because loading sucks there were a lot of complaints about Mass Effect 1's stupid elevators

So in 2, they just removed the disguised loading altogether and gave you a perfectly normal loading screen instead

and, wouldn't you know it, one of the most frequent annoyances of 2 was the constant loading! Which hadn't been fixed at all. But damned if those elevators weren't gone.

Especially annoying because the elevators at least gave something to look at and sometimes had things like radio announcements or fun snippets of dialogue between companions. 2 had your typical boring loading screens with gameplay tips and had nothing to compensate.

(yes, I know, part of the problem was that the disguised loading was also hard coded into the game so that even on a beefy PC players would effectively experience the same load times. But that's not really relevant.)

Bee · 2016-06-19 19:23:51

Imipolex G said:

Section42L said:

Tatterhood said:
it's true, all human beings in the world want the exact same thing from the next Metroid™ video game, and also simultaneously do not want that thing
Well, I would prefer it to be side-scrolling myself, but it's hard to express that opinion without coming off as a grognard.

Since that's not realistic, I'm just glad to see him gone from the franchise again.

I am legit curious what peoples' beefs are with this game, because with him gone I assume this isn't going to repeat Other M's mistakes.
It's a multiplayer FPS with chibi-looking graphics. None of the usual exploration is present and you don't play as Samus.

Fans aren't taking this well

Even the released gameplay videos are basically just "hold this rather small room for 15 minutes while we spam you with the same two enemy types in four different waves over and over".

Klinotaxis · 2016-06-19 19:27:55

Several games have done a "push X to shoot your mom" sorta thing. It has some value as a stark (non)choice plot thing, I guess

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-06-19 19:28:37

^^^ There is a tendency with some folks to complain about elements of design from an uneducated vantage and treat instances where the best was made of an inherent limitation as a flaw rather than something clever. It is criticism without a background in the subject of the critique.

Klinotaxis · 2016-06-19 19:31:09

Feel so attacked atm

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-06-19 19:31:31

Klinotaxis said:
Several games have done a "push X to shoot your mom" sorta thing. It has some value as a stark (non)choice plot thing, I guess

It can be done well or done badly, but my point is that it can be done well, even if it is usually done badly. I like the concept of the denial of choice as a gameplay mechanic.

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-06-19 19:32:09

Klinotaxis said:
Feel so attacked atm

I was referring to Kex's post, Klino. I am sorry.

Why do gamers have such a bat in their belfries about QTEs

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