ASOIAF & Game of Thrones blathering (spoilers I guess).

edited 2016-03-22 05:15:54 in General Media
There's clearly something about this story (or now, stories) that has captured a vast audience for a very good reason. I'm not sure what it is, but I know it's not articulated particularly well. Mind, I'm happy for people to like what they like, but both the books and the TV series aren't good for the reasons that are commonly posited. Let's hit up some examples:

"The plot is exceptional."

Maybe? This falls deeply into the realms of subjectivity, but I'll grant that the plot is exceptionally unpredictable and convoluted. Neither of these are inherently good or bad traits, but I don't feel they're used particularly well. Part of this is Martin's writing style; his background in writing TV serials is on full display as he ends many chapters of his books with cliffhangers, often waiting several chapters (if not a whole book) until the resolution of those events is described. I found this a frustrating reading experience, because I draw a stop-start feeling from this kind of writing tempo.

Compounding this, Martin seems to feel a need to answer every perspective character death with the introduction of another perspective character. So rather than using the end of a character's plotline and development to focus on existing characters, the stop-start cycle simply continues. Character deaths often seem arbitrary, too, relying on a combination of shock value and implications towards realism. In many cases, I'd much rather have seen character plotlines continue. We're already invested, so why undo that work for a temporary emotional rise? A great example is Joffrey's death, which is cathartic for the audience, but robs us of a more dramatic catharsis later on if he were undone by a character we had previous investment in. 

"It's much more realistic than other works of fiction focusing on medieval and/or fantasy elements."

This is probably the biggest factual error I hear, and it's an error on numerous levels. For one thing, fiction is fiction for a reason; life doesn't generally organise itself into a narrative other than in retrospect. This is the essentially unrealistic element of fiction, and one of the reasons things like writing frameworks exist in the first place; one of a writer's job is to provide a frame of reference that's simple enough that an audience can follow events without getting easily lost. Usually, the best results emerge from sophisticated and elegant use of simpler frameworks. 

In terms of social organisation, we only get very absolute examples based on caricatures of historical societies. The Iron Islands provide the best example, because it reduces the medieval Norse to one concept contained in a verb -- "Viking". There were no "vikings" as a society, as one would "go viking" as an activity. The medieval Norse sometimes used viking as a source of wealth, as most of their population were farmers, and the cold conditions of the location and period could make farming precarious. Norse warriors were, largely, comparable to the warriors of any Germanic society at the time, primarily being lightly armoured spearmen with shields. More broadly, different regions of the setting are divided into types of social organisation; we have a feudal empire/kingdom region, a city state region, and a nomad region. One of the more interesting aspects of history (at least in my opinion) was the interaction between these types of societies, as they often existed in close proximity to one-another rather than in discrete "zones". 

On a more superficial level of criticism, Martin doesn't display much nuanced understanding of the late medieval warfare he's predominantly describing. In his depictions of war, he conflates civil war, total war, and "ritual" war (the broadly accepted term for the concept escapes me right now). His idea of military organisation used amounts to "a bunch of dudes I guess", rather than anything that might provide a frame of reference such as lance organisation or decimal organisation. Martin also lacks a working understanding of how to use the likes of a sword or spear (or whatever else). This isn't an issue for most people, but it makes some parts really cringey to me, particularly when characters are trying to demonstrate how hardcore or whatever they are. 

"It resembles history remarkably well."

Connected to the above, but worth discussion in its own right. In the study of history, one is trying to discover the most likely "narrative" on the basis of imperfect evidence. That means that many historical events and systems are based on educated guessing rather than absolutely objective proof. So the process of learning history doesn't involve the reading of a history book; it involves the appraisal of many sources of information, which is a task history books assist with, but don't eclipse. The stories we're reading or watching sometimes include ambiguous elements, but the majority of events are presented as objective truths within the setting of the story. 

Naturally, there's nothing wrong with this. It's how fiction works. But reading ASOIAF or watching GoT is nothing like the process of interpreting historical evidence, because our information is too clean. 

tl;dr: The praise ASOIAF and GoT get is often expressed through incorrect information or assumption. I don't have any problem with people liking what they like, but these series are just as ahistorical and coloured by interpretation, bias, and misunderstanding as many other fantasy or semi-historical works of fiction are. I feel this is important because the way people understand history is so often informed by the media that references it, and Martin's work is just as flawed in providing an understanding of the periods and culture types involved as any number of other fantasy works I could name. So this post isn't so much about the quality of these stories as such, but their broad reception and common interpretation. 

Comments

  • my understanding was that the primary appeal was the writing (for both the books and the show)

    and something about how it takes a kinda by the numbers fantasy setting and then overlays a contemporary sense of political intrigue onto to it?
  • and something about how it takes a kinda by the numbers fantasy setting and then overlays a contemporary sense of political intrigue onto to it?
    This is probably the greatest virtue of either series, given how the power structures of our neoliberal world and the past of feudal authority don't always seem so distant.

    That said, politicking hasn't really changed much, with the exception being that modern politics is in some ways less diverse than historical politics, at least in stable and wealthy nations. The coexistence of feudal states with empires, confederacies, city states, tribes, and local governmental bodies (such as town mayors and other authorities) saw to that.  
  • oh, i wasn't trying to say that it has, it's just that sort of thing is generally either avoided entirely or barely touched on in fantasy novels, whereas Game of Thrones apparently revels in it

    i should mention at this juncture that I have never engaged with either the book or the show, everything i know is courtesy of Sredni, who quite likes the show
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    To the OP's bit about "historicity," I would say he's historically accurate, but not to history itself.

    Insofar as I can tell, Martin draws heavily on the fiction and philosophies of pre-Renaissance Eurasia, particularly Western Europe but also Eastern Roman and Arabic works. The Dothraki are German reports of the "Tartars" made flesh; the machinations at the top draw on Tudor history plays and Byzantine gossip; the magic, as you have noted, draws heavily on mediaeval ideas of alchemy and witchcraft. It uses distorted ideas from history to construct a world outside of history, and then peoples it with believable individuals rather than wild archetypal heroes and villains. It also exposes a lot of the more disturbing aspects of how these stories objectify certain classes of people and make them the Other, particularly women.
  • On that last bit, I think it's worth noting that Martin decides to include a segment where 14 year old Daenerys gets finger fucked by one of her handmaidens for no particular reason. Like, I can clearly see where he's pointing out some of the things you mention, but Martin on the other hand is often guilty of the same things. I don't feel like I'm picking at nits here; like we just get a little bit of revelry in underage lesbian sex from the writing perspective of an old heterosexual male, which would be considered blithely pornographic (and illegal) in any visual medium but is apparently totally cool here. 

    Explicit lolicon action aside, I can see there's much to be appreciated in the books and show alike, but my major issue is the reception of these stories. They're treated as being more historical or more real than other fantasy stories, and neither position is really true. And clearly this is not a story for me, which is fine, if a bit disappointing given how GoT has motivated interest in medieval history (which, given the success of the LotR films, has allowed that public-interest-in-medieval-history train to keep chugging for well over a decade now). 
  • edited 2016-03-22 05:57:43

    large numbers of clueless people interpreting/understanding things poorly is nothing new, and doesn't really have much to do with the media itself usually
  • also i was like "illegal"? and then i realized "oh yeah Australia probably has different laws"
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    Yeah, I've mostly just watched the show where they've either altered or ignored a lot of that early weirdness, although the writing in later seasons goes in different excessive directions.

    You're kind of ignoring my actual point, though.
  • edited 2016-03-22 06:12:01

    To the OP's bit about "historicity," I would say he's historically accurate, but not to history itself.


    Insofar as I can tell, Martin draws heavily on the fiction and philosophies of pre-Renaissance Eurasia, particularly Western Europe but also Eastern Roman and Arabic works. The Dothraki are German reports of the "Tartars" made flesh; the machinations at the top draw on Tudor history plays and Byzantine gossip; the magic, as you have noted, draws heavily on mediaeval ideas of alchemy and witchcraft. It uses distorted ideas from history to construct a world outside of history, and then peoples it with believable individuals rather than wild archetypal heroes and villains. It also exposes a lot of the more disturbing aspects of how these stories objectify certain classes of people and make them the Other, particularly women.
    The reason I mostly ignored this is because I don't see any reason to contend with it; from what I can see, you're arguing that Martin is going a bit meta and constructing a world based on medieval Europe's own semi-fictional views of itself and external regions (and please do correct me if I've interpreted you wrongly). 

    And to that I say, yep, that is certainly a valid interpretation of both the books and the TV series. It's not an interpretation I'm particularly beholden to, or an interpretation I'm convinced was intentional, but it's indisputably a valid and well-considered way to analyse these stories. 
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    That's exactly what I was arguing, yes. Given that Martin, whatever his flaws as a writer, is clearly a pretty literate individual, this intention would not surprise me in the least. There's also the clear Lovecraft influence, explicitly with the Red Priests and the Drowned Men and more implicitly with the undercurrent of ancient unfathomable strangeness, but that ties into the many bizarre misconceptions and preoccupations that scholastic authors had with foreign lands, black magic, folk traditions, mythical animals, and so forth. The world is very, very big and very, very old, and knowing it is impossible.
  • It's convenient that you bring up the likes of religion and the supernatural, because I think it's one of the areas many fantasy works stray from medieval Europe/West Asia/North Africa most substantially. In GoT (and plenty of other fantasy fiction), the world's essential machinations are unknowable -- as you point out. But the monotheists of medieval history took the natural world itself to be holy, with Catholics merely being the most overt in harnessing this theme. So in many medieval fantasy works, the world is constructed in order to provide conflict for the cast; in Abrahamic monotheism, the natural world is a provider and is corrupted only by the sinfulness of people. 

    Then again, lots of fantasy fiction likes to go with the pagan pantheon approach, in which case Mother Nature's thoughts on human provision are not so unconditionally generous. I'm not contending anything here so much as I'm typing out loud on an interesting distinction between fantasy fiction and medieval thought. 

    But on that note, The Red Knight (by Miles Cameron) is one of relatively few fantasy stories that does roll with monotheism as we know it, and its influence on human behaviour (among many other inclusions from medieval history). I'd recommend it to anyone who's up for something like an alternative to GoT with similar appeals. It has its own issues, but I'd say it's head and shoulders above most fantasy fiction options -- it's nearly Witcher levels of quality, in my view. 
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    I'm more talking about the way that travellers' accounts, bestiaries and accounts of the supernatural and the like created this weird dichotomy between the scholastic idea that all can be named and understood and all is holy and the residual superstitions and strange tales that survived in the collective imagination and fostered a less forgiving view of the world. Martin is far more demotic in his approach than most of the writers of the time, which I think is part of his aim, and part of that draws on the terrors of a mostly illiterate populace looking into the darkness, whether of unknown lands or the hell of years of war and plague.
  • That dichotomy was certainly a thing, and erring towards the folk horror side of things is an interesting decision, particularly in the case of the Night's Watch plotline (which I consider to be the best self-contained story within the books, at least up to the point I read). If we were to err on the side of "historicity", though, we'd find that the kind of land control generated by the central governance of empires and kingdoms at this level of technology often dispels much of that folk horror, as population density appreciates in developed towns and cities.  

    What I'm getting at here is that Martin is leading us to believe he's representing a late medieval society, but the societal anachronisms in place are informed by a version of Europe that is much less domesticated than the late medieval period. And again, there's nothing particularly wrong with that (narrative effectiveness takes precedence in fiction, after all), but I do dislike the implication that ASOIAF and GoT is more representative of medieval Europe than other fantasy works -- which is partially reinforced by Martin himself through interviews and whatnot. 

    This is why I generally end up recommending Miles Cameron's books (or Christian Cameron's, depending on the pen name he's using) in GoT discussions, because it's a similar type of story that, while indulging in its own historical modifications for narrative convenience, provides a closer interpretation of the time period. It's also worth noting that Martin's views on medieval history seem to be predominantly informed by a semi-revisionist school of historical thought that was popular throughout the 20th century until the 80s. As far as I can tell, this school of thought emerged as a response to the romanticism that Victorian society lent to the medieval periods, but swung the pendulum too far in the other direction and oversold the unreliability of manuscript evidence. 

    So just as much as Martin's decisions are narrative, they're results of the ambiguity of evidence from the periods in question and the academic conflicts that ensue over that evidence. Works of fiction that aim at least in part to interpret history become a tool for conveying an understanding, which is why the external context of GoT is so important to me -- more important than the work itself. And the understanding being conveyed here is at least partially outdated. At the very least, we can observe that GoT is taken in modern pop-culture to be the most "realistic" fantasy story, and nuanced counterpoints don't ever seem to emerge (as they did for the likes of LotR, when its popularity exploded with the films). 
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    I feel like the basic technology is late mediaeval, sure, but everything else feels more akin to... well, "Dark Ages" seems a bit silly, all told, but perhaps "post-Roman/pre-Chaucerian" is appropriate—say, from the Oath of Strasbourg (845) to the Canterbury Tales (1350s). He seems to draw very heavily on ideas from a period in European history that gets swept under the rug a lot, but has the basic tech set at vaguely early Renaissance levels for the sake of narrative expedience and a greater wealth of technical information. (Incidentally, if you consider the North as a rough analogue for Eastern Europe at the time, the juxtaposition of modernity and the ancient and mysterious becomes a lot more justifiable: While cosmopolitan and tolerant, Lithuania was also the last state in Europe to renounce paganism, a great temple to the god of fire having stood at Vilnius well into the modern era before it was supplanted with a cathedral.)
  • edited 2016-06-21 22:40:25
    ...And even when your hope is gone
    move along, move along, just to make it through
    (2015 self)
    Bump for RAMSAY FACEPUNCH.

    PUNCH 'IS FACE OFF, JON!  PUNCH HIS FAAAAAAAAAACE OFF!

    Sorry, but there was a time, in my younger, pre-tv-Tropes years, when I got quite invested in this series.

    Anyways, the show and the books really really fail to represent the middle ages in a satisfying way for me, especially the lack of Christianity and its influence.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    Oh, that has definitely changed as the show has gone on. Just in a somewhat sideways fashion.
  • ...And even when your hope is gone
    move along, move along, just to make it through
    (2015 self)
    I know, I know, but too little too late, I mean, Charlemagne couldn't have truly have created the court system and model of Kingship that he did without him and the Pope mutually backing each other up and defining one another's roles as the two self-appointed leaders of the Christian World.
  • kill living beings
    Clearly it is modeled off of Coptic politics
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    The court system is way closer to Anglo-Saxon stuff like weregild and outfangthief, though; and the unified kingdom is explicitly a holdover from Targaryen rule, which has more parallels with the Eastern Roman Empire than that of the Franks.
  • edited 2016-06-21 23:00:28
    ...And even when your hope is gone
    move along, move along, just to make it through
    (2015 self)
    Outfangthief and Infangthief are more of a feudal, post-conquest, thing, though.  However, the weregild is sixth century (Good old King Ethelbert), if standardized by Alfred (not eliminated as is sometimes thought).

     Alfred The Great's feudalism and law code was directly inspired by Charlemagne, but the danelaw was not the first law, and I can see some few parallels in the ASOIAF North to pre-Danelaw law, and the Danelaw itself borrows much from those earlier law codes.

    But still, stories of raising knights to landed status like what happened to the Cleganes, smells a lot like stories of stuff William the Conqueror did during his redistribution of England's land.  And banners and heraldry are very post-1066, let alone post Charlemagne.
  • As far as the story itself is concerned, here are my thoughts on one of the big developments in the last episode (only to be clicked on by people who already saw it or don't care about spoilers).

  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    So kind of off the point, but just curious: my brother says the series' reputation for major character death is overstated, and that it doesn't happen to the extent that it happens in Torchwood or The Walking Dead.  How accurate is this?
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    It is definitely overstated. I mean, most of the Stark kids are still kicking around, the better part of the Lannister clan seems immune to murder, there are a whole bunch of likeable minor characters that a crueller series would have offed with extreme prejudice (particularly Sam and Gilly), and then of course there's [so many spoilers redacted here, my god], so... yeah.
  • I have cut a caper with the dancing mad god
    The pacing and lack of opportunity for emotional investment in most characters are my biggest peeves. 

    I generally prefer books where I can, if not 'root for' a protagonist, at least have the chance to get to know and understand them in the long term. I prefer a fairly static cast of characters - if you grow the character roster, I prefer it to be done slowly. Start out with 3-4 main characters at most, give or take, and gradually expand if necessary. Preferably start out with 1-2, really. I've enjoyed series like The Wheel of Time, but had a huge cast by the end, but all were introduced slowly and I had plenty of time to get to know them. Their chapters were relatively well contained and ended on satisfying notes, rather than on the cliffhangers mentioned earlier. It wasn't disappointing to have a character chapter end, since there weren't so many cliffhangers. 

    The cliffhangers in the first books really turned me off. I'd find myself skipping chapters to get back to this character who I'd JUST had time to get invested in, because screw me for wanting a little closure at the end of a chapter. This is effective in television, but not in literature. It just made me care less about the character whose chapter followed, since I went in viewing it as a chore that I had to overcome before I could back to the character I wanted to be reading about. 

    That all being said about the books, I've quite enjoyed the show. I find it very well suited to television, and it makes me incredibly happy to see a fantasy series being so hugely popular. Makes me optimistic for more fantasy to make it to the big screen like that. 
  • I asked myself recently: why exactly do I like this show?
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    The dialogue and the plotting.

    Also, when karma is a huge bitch.
  • Karma is a massive bitch.

    Come for the boobs, stay for the dragons.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    And the quips, the resurrection of the dead, and bad things happening to... well, all sorts of people, really.
  • kill living beings
    Also goes for the Bible
  • And Tyrion slapping Joffrey.

    Three times.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    What Al mentioned was arguably even better, although it was the ironic follow-through that made it amazing.

    Nowhere near so funny, though.
  • edited 2016-06-22 06:42:28
    meow meow meowtherfuckers
    i mean, i'm pretty predictable with what i'm excited about (spoilers for latest ep)
    Spoiler:
    image 
     
    Spoiler:
    image 
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    Oh wow, that, yes.
  • I, for one, welcome this new change.
  • I was about to say something very spoiler, but then I forgot how to put things in spoilers.
  • edited 2016-06-22 06:55:12
    meow meow meowtherfuckers
    just type 'spoiler' in brackets oh my god i kept doing it so many times in an effort to show you i am dumb
  • Spoiler:
    test
  • Spoiler:
    I support this new lesbian matriarchy


  • But what about Daario?
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”

    But what about Daario?


  • That works. :)

    (Also, I've repeatedly said in the past that "Bizarre Love Triangle" is perhaps the best song ever recorded.)
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    What a lovely coincidence! :D
  • I actually saw a bit of the newest episode on Sunday because my dad had it on in our hotel room

    I still think the show's too Dark and Moody for my taste, but that battle was Lit™ and it was nice seeing Dinklebot Peter Dinklage in his natural habitat
  • edited 2016-06-22 08:27:16
    The thing that kept me from watching for a long time was reading a spoiler about:

    Spoiler:
    Theon's brutal torture and castration

    I felt like that was just too disturbing for me to watch. But still, I followed recaps because I wanted to see what would happen, if there was a light at the end of the tunnel for that particular person. Eventually I began YouTubing various scenes that were less disturbing, and then watching more and more, until I began watching pretty much everything.
  • Well, shit.

    I was hoping for the Faith Militant to get what was coming to them, and to be perfectly honest I'm glad that they did, but I know that I shouldn't feel that way because Cersei killed who knows how many innocents along with them, and I'm sure a lot of those deaths were slow and agonizing. It also sucks that Loras not only got tormented even more in his final appearance, but was killed with everybody else soon afterward. I was really hoping that he'd make it through all of that and that the story of his life would have a happy ending.
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