Where do dragons get their hoards?

Odradek · 2016-01-11 14:46:36

I know Smaug stole his all at once, but is that the norm?

Alduin · 2016-01-11 15:01:56

The dragon in Beowulf just found it lying around.

Klinotaxis · 2016-01-11 16:19:42

I always thought they just accumulated it slowly from a lifetime of killing knights with more money than sense.

One-Winged Eagle · 2016-01-11 16:21:11

There aren't that many dragons and I guess they just threaten countryside settlements until they have enough to sleep on.

Princess Alice · 2016-01-11 16:25:23

paging Anonus

LOAD Cherry · 2016-01-11 18:54:20

Probably from lifetimes of ransoming princesses and killing adventurers

Fossilmaiden · 2016-01-11 19:08:20

You see, you've actually got it the wrong way round. Hoards are actually sentient beings known as creeping coins, which are attracted to dragons as a form of defense against thieves.

LOAD Cherry · 2016-01-11 19:11:03

Fossilmaiden said:
You see, you've actually got it the wrong way round. Hoards are actually sentient beings known as creeping coins, which are attracted to dragons as a form of defense against thieves.

That's actually.... a really good D&D monster idea???

Klinotaxis · 2016-01-11 19:20:54

aren't living coins already in dnd? they're in dungeon meshi, at least

Princess Alice · 2016-01-11 19:21:21

Anonus's hoard has a bunch of logos in it

I think he stole them from signs around town

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-01-11 20:11:16

A pile of possessed/sentient coins operating as a collective consciousness sounds like a great idea for either an RPG campaign monster (D'n'D or not) or just a work of fantasy fiction.

Hell, I might have to nick it myself, if the Moon Lady should permit me to do so.

Odradek · 2016-01-11 20:13:35

It's been said that in some editions, you could build an entire dungeon out of monsters pretending to be things.

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-01-11 20:16:22

There's a Shinto concept about how objects can develop souls and consciousness after a given amount of time and eventually begin to behave like animals or people. That's part of what's going on with the hopping lamp in Spirited Away, for instance, although I have also seen things like parasol demons in old prints.

Odradek · 2016-01-11 20:17:40

http://www.lomion.de/cmm/locklurk.php

Okay they were a 1st edition monster.

Speaking of manga/anime I like that in D&D, Kobolds were originally portrayed as dogmen, but became lizardmen around 3rd edition. However, the Japanese kept up the dogmen thing, leading to divergent evolution.

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-01-11 20:20:50

Oh, gosh, pup!kobold is so cuuuute. 83

I like lizard!kobolds, too, incidentally. I kind of developed a whole cultural concept for them for that D'n'D campaign the beau was half-planning on running that I want to use sometime... >->

Odradek · 2016-01-11 20:22:15

Lizard kobolds are great, they're basically the goombas of D&D and they're perfectly aware of that.

Klinotaxis · 2016-01-11 20:22:36

This is even better than I remembered (read right to left)

Klinotaxis · 2016-01-11 20:24:35

the page Myrmidon linked said:
Lurkers are hermaphroditic; whenever two adults meet, they mate and go their separate ways. One to four months later, each lurker lays an egg sack of 1d12×10 tiny eggs, 60% of which are fertile. Untended, these hatch in 1d6 weeks, typically producing 3d6 offspring. These eat the unhatched eggs (and sometimes each other) until they are fully mobile, then wander off in search of food. They never fight other lurkers, and they mature within seven years.

Are the dice for your ecologically aware D&D campaigns or what

Obā-san · 2016-01-11 20:25:16

Sredni Vashtar said:
Oh, gosh, pup!kobold is so cuuuute. 83

yuth!

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-01-11 20:31:46

Baldanders said:
Lizard kobolds are great, they're basically the goombas of D&D and they're perfectly aware of that.

I sort of had this idea based on how the source books say that kobolds breed selectively that they have a sort of Roman/Celtic gens system going on with respect to how they identify in familial terms, and that they are raised by a chosen collective within their gens which educates them on tribal lineage and their parentage in this sort of historical and at times religious capacity. Also, they're probably sort of nonchalant about sex that doesn't result in reproduction but in this weird detached way that makes a lot of other cultures deeply uncomfortable.

Obā-san · 2016-01-11 20:32:48

wow u fuckin furry

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-01-11 20:35:29

I meant to a genuinely weird, vaguely sociopathic degree.

"Well, that was fun, Close Relative, but I'm totally selling you out to those loan sharks because you totally ripped me off out of this week's rent money!"

Odradek · 2016-01-11 20:40:07

One thing I like about D&D is the Giants.

In that they created different kinds of giants to encapsulate all the kinds you might see in stories(giants that live in castles in clouds, stand-offish giants that love to throw stonesbig ogrish giants that live in caves, nordic frost giants) and then eventually came up with the idea that these different giants were once castes in a now vanished giant-empire, and every individual giant still respects hierarchy even though they rarely interact with different castes anymore.

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-01-11 20:40:30

^^ But that's sort of an extension of their attitude towards basically everything, which is, well, not human.

glennmagusharvey · 2016-01-11 20:54:54

Where do dragons get their hoards?

Completionist playthroughs of Freedom Planet.

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-01-11 21:02:59

Baldanders said:
One thing I like about D&D is the Giants.

In that they created different kinds of giants to encapsulate all the kinds you might see in stories(giants that live in castles in clouds, stand-offish giants that love to throw stonesbig ogrish giants that live in caves, nordic frost giants) and then eventually came up with the idea that these different giants were once castes in a now vanished giant-empire, and every individual giant still respects hierarchy even though they rarely interact with different castes anymore.

That is fascinating. Someone needs to do something with this.

Really, that is verging on Overside territory.

One-Winged Eagle · 2016-01-12 00:34:42

Our dragons don't have hoards because they're not materialist assholes.

Anonus · 2016-01-12 00:35:38

Central Avenue said:
Anonus's hoard has a bunch of logos in it

I think he stole them from signs around town

He did.

He also begged some places not to throw away their old signs once the chains they were part of changed their logos

eriophora zia · 2016-01-12 00:36:49

I feel like "Where Do Dragons Get Their Hoards?" would be a great title for a children's picture book.

Princess Alice · 2016-01-12 00:39:09

Anonus said:

Central Avenue said:
Anonus's hoard has a bunch of logos in it

I think he stole them from signs around town
He did.

He also begged some places not to throw away their old signs once the chains they were part of changed their logos

Can you imagine if you're just some underpaid sign installer who got hired to replace the sign on a random Taco Bell and a MOTHERFUCKIN DRAGON comes up to you and asks for the old one? I think you'd feel like you had no choice but to give it to him.

Odradek · 2016-01-12 00:39:15

MachSpeed said:
Our dragons don't have hoards because they're not materialist assholes.

Western dragons are the disowned desires of Eastern dragons.

Salix Babylonika · 2016-01-12 00:47:26

Knightess Cerise said:

Fossilmaiden said:
You see, you've actually got it the wrong way round. Hoards are actually sentient beings known as creeping coins, which are attracted to dragons as a form of defense against thieves.
That's actually.... a really good D&D monster idea???

it's from a game series.

Salix Babylonika · 2016-01-12 00:47:37

Wizardry?

Salix Babylonika · 2016-01-12 00:48:57

Klinotaxis said:
This is even better than I remembered (read right to left)

is this from Dungeon Cuisine or whatever it's called

LOAD Cherry · 2016-01-12 00:49:19

I would very much like to make a pathfinder monster out of the creeping coin idea.

Fossilmaiden · 2016-01-12 00:50:53

The Wizardry version is just sentient coins that try to murder you, so. For some reason they have a breath weapon.

Odradek · 2016-01-12 00:51:13

The dragon from Beowulf is the Tyler Durden of Fucanglong

Salix Babylonika · 2016-01-12 00:52:26

Creeping Coins can either be your best friend or worst nightmare. They have zero defense and HP, and they only have two moves—call for help, or employ a breath weapon. The breath weapon hits everyone in your party, but only for 1 damage. The catch is, there's usually 21+ of them spread over three parties, and they can knock some serious holes in you if they all decide not to be retarded at once. If you want to risk it, you'll need to get your Mahalito on. It will clear out an entire group of them in one shot, giving them much less time to wreak havoc. And the reward is well worth it—I've gotten easily 2k experience average from these things, which is the most I've seen since Murphy's Ghost.

Word of warning: I've read in a beastiary somewhere that their breath weapon can sap levels from people. I have yet to see any evidence to this, but it's something to keep an eye on.

Haven · 2016-01-12 00:54:06

Sredni Vashtar said:

Baldanders said:
One thing I like about D&D is the Giants.

In that they created different kinds of giants to encapsulate all the kinds you might see in stories(giants that live in castles in clouds, stand-offish giants that love to throw stonesbig ogrish giants that live in caves, nordic frost giants) and then eventually came up with the idea that these different giants were once castes in a now vanished giant-empire, and every individual giant still respects hierarchy even though they rarely interact with different castes anymore.
That is fascinating. Someone needs to do something with this.

Really, that is verging on Overside territory.

In Spelljammer, there's a planet of semisolid clouds where "the dragons often spend time visiting their giant friends, enjoying massive feasts and displays of musical skill."

It just makes me happy to think about.

LOAD Cherry · 2016-01-12 00:54:29

So diminutive construct with swarm, probably only 2 hit dice.

Fossilmaiden · 2016-01-12 00:57:27

Old CRPG monsters are weird. "Here is a swarm of monsters that evolved to resemble coins for some reason. Also it's murderous."

Odradek · 2016-01-12 00:58:01

Fossilmaiden said:
Old CRPG monsters are weird. "Here is a swarm of monsters that evolved to resemble coins for some reason. Also it's murderous."

This is just old school D&D too, so.

MadassAlex · 2016-01-12 00:59:18

Sredni Vashtar said:
There's a Shinto concept about how objects can develop souls and consciousness after a given amount of time and eventually begin to behave like animals or people. That's part of what's going on with the hopping lamp in Spirited Away, for instance, although I have also seen things like parasol demons in old prints.

Also why the passage of swords down family lines (or other kinds of heritage) was often and can still sometimes be a big deal in Japanese culture. While a similar gravity was lent to heritage of some objects in the West, it's never quite on the level of "this thing is borderline sentient in its own right and therefore should be treated with the care one would show a human being" kind of thing.

On the actual topic, I think it's actually pretty cool how The Hobbit discusses the economic fallout of a Germanic dragon's greed. The films botched it, but it's pretty neat how a popular children's story introduces economic themes during its final act. In the legend of Sigurd/Siegfried and Fafnir, if memory serves, Fafnir started life as a dwarf and was ultimately consumed by greed; this manifested as a transformation into a dragon. Tolkien puts his own spin on things during The Hobbit (with Thorin becoming more like Smaug psychologically upon taking control of the treasure), but C.S. Lewis also provides a contemporary example; in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, the petulant and self-centred Eustace undergoes physical transformation into a dragon upon sleeping among a treasure trove while wearing a bracelet from among it.

The common threads, of course, are jealousy, greed, and self-importance. Eastern dragons are relatively impartial representatives of their respective environments and landmarks, whereas the Germanic dragon is a symptom of corruption -- particularly in sentient beings. This doesn't apply to all Western dragons; my memory is foggy, but I recall some Serbian legends describing two dragons, one of a protective nature towards humanity and one of an antagonistic nature. You'll find different patterns again among myths from different broad culture types, be those of Celtic origin, Greek origin, or whatever you might to look into. The point of this paragraph is that the greedy, hoarding dragon is historically specific to Germanic cultures (especially in a pagan context) and has been generalised through the popularity of the works of Tokien, Lewis, and their ilk.

In literature of Christian cultural origin, particularly later in the Middle Ages and onwards, you'll find more generalised notions of antagonistic dragons. A hoard is optional at this point; the authors of these later works are more concerned with the razing of countrysides and the slaughter of virtuous maidens.

Fossilmaiden · 2016-01-12 01:00:01

Baldanders said:

Fossilmaiden said:
Old CRPG monsters are weird. "Here is a swarm of monsters that evolved to resemble coins for some reason. Also it's murderous."
This is just old school D&D too, so.

At least mimics are big enough to eat you. What is a coin going to do? :|

Odradek · 2016-01-12 01:00:36

Baldanders said:

MachSpeed said:
Our dragons don't have hoards because they're not materialist assholes.
Western dragons are the disowned desires of Eastern dragons.

Salix Babylonika · 2016-01-12 01:02:45

I dunno I don't think coin bugs are that weird.

I've heard of masked hunter bugs disguising themselves in weed stashes before so idk.

Sredni Vashtar · 2016-01-12 01:26:50

MadassAlex said:

Sredni Vashtar said:
There's a Shinto concept about how objects can develop souls and consciousness after a given amount of time and eventually begin to behave like animals or people. That's part of what's going on with the hopping lamp in Spirited Away, for instance, although I have also seen things like parasol demons in old prints.
Also why the passage of swords down family lines (or other kinds of heritage) was often and can still sometimes be a big deal in Japanese culture. While a similar gravity was lent to heritage of some objects in the West, it's never quite on the level of "this thing is borderline sentient in its own right and therefore should be treated with the care one would show a human being" kind of thing.

On the actual topic, I think it's actually pretty cool how The Hobbit discusses the economic fallout of a Germanic dragon's greed. The films botched it, but it's pretty neat how a popular children's story introduces economic themes during its final act. In the legend of Sigurd/Siegfried and Fafnir, if memory serves, Fafnir started life as a dwarf and was ultimately consumed by greed; this manifested as a transformation into a dragon. Tolkien puts his own spin on things during The Hobbit (with Thorin becoming more like Smaug psychologically upon taking control of the treasure), but C.S. Lewis also provides a contemporary example; in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, the petulant and self-centred Eustace undergoes physical transformation into a dragon upon sleeping among a treasure trove while wearing a bracelet from among it.

The common threads, of course, are jealousy, greed, and self-importance. Eastern dragons are relatively impartial representatives of their respective environments and landmarks, whereas the Germanic dragon is a symptom of corruption -- particularly in sentient beings. This doesn't apply to all Western dragons; my memory is foggy, but I recall some Serbian legends describing two dragons, one of a protective nature towards humanity and one of an antagonistic nature. You'll find different patterns again among myths from different broad culture types, be those of Celtic origin, Greek origin, or whatever you might to look into. The point of this paragraph is that the greedy, hoarding dragon is historically specific to Germanic cultures (especially in a pagan context) and has been generalised through the popularity of the works of Tokien, Lewis, and their ilk.

In literature of Christian cultural origin, particularly later in the Middle Ages and onwards, you'll find more generalised notions of antagonistic dragons. A hoard is optional at this point; the authors of these later works are more concerned with the razing of countrysides and the slaughter of virtuous maidens.

This is a really interesting bit of cultural memetic... something going on here. As is the whole "the sword is basically your grandpa" thing in Japan and a few other places, which I was actually tangentially aware of despite never making the connection between that and dancing angry parasols. Thank you, Alex.

Salix Babylonika · 2016-01-12 01:28:25

Dancing Angry Parasols is my favorite indie band.

Klinotaxis · 2016-01-12 01:30:31

eriophora zia said:
I feel like "Where Do Dragons Get Their Hoards?" would be a great title for a children's picture book.

yes

Jane said:

Klinotaxis said:
This is even better than I remembered (read right to left)
is this from Dungeon Cuisine or whatever it's called

yes

Salix Babylonika · 2016-01-12 01:31:06

where did you find a translation of it that wasn't fuckawful, because I've had no success in that regard

Odradek · 2016-01-12 01:35:40

Jane said:
where did you find a translation of it that wasn't fuckawful, because I've had no success in that regard

The initial translation was shit, and then there was another shitawful translation, but then someone competent picked it up and has been doing all the chapters pretty fast on Batoto.

Where do dragons get their hoards?

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