"Everyone gets a trophy"

Anonus

Where the hell did this come from? Because I don't remember everyone getting a trophy when I was a kid. A participation ribbon, but those aren't trophies.

Obā-san

even the trophy gets arrested 

Calica

It comes from people who want to make children cry and couch their goals in the idea of reinforcement and reward and the bizarre idea that maximizing the emotional difference between winning and losing in a contest that is frankly almost completely random is a good way to teach them to strive harder rather than just lead them to be panicky and overly cautious

Calica

What I'm saying is: more participation trophies

Tachyon

i think maybe you are interpreting this complaint more literally than it is intended?

the point is that a prize for the mere act of taking part doesn't feel much like a prize

Tachyon

Calica said:

the bizarre idea that maximizing the emotional difference between winning and losing in a contest that is frankly almost completely random

Wait, what contest?

Calica

Tachyon said:

i think maybe you are interpreting this complaint more literally than it is intended?

the point is that a prize for the mere act of taking part doesn't feel much like a prize

the complaint is usually made by people whining about modern society making kids "soft"

and i actually agree on the latter point

Anonus

Calica said:

It comes from people who want to make children cry and couch their goals in the idea of reinforcement and reward and the bizarre idea that maximizing the emotional difference between winning and losing in a contest that is frankly almost completely random is a good way to teach them to strive harder rather than just lead them to be panicky and overly cautious

I used to be one of those people who kind of gave up once things stopped going my way, but that's no way to be and I'm hopefully snapping out of it

Tachyon

i'm not sure i follow how this implies "almost complete randomness"

i mean i think this is usually said with reference to sports, in which the winners are likely to be the kids who are most active and most determined to win, i think?

Calica

Tachyon said:i'm not sure i follow how this implies "almost complete randomness"

i mean i think this is usually said with reference to sports, in which the winners are likely to be the kids who are most active and most determined to win, i think?


I mean, even on the highest levels the difference between a win and a loss can be a few inches, and at the lower levels the kids aren't going to have the skill at the game to have significant skill differences beyond, like, the famous ones regarding school cutoffs, etc.

Tachyon

There are going to be kids who are good at the game and kids who aren't.  There was never any likelihood of me ever coming first in a school sporting event; i was usually last in the class.  Conversely, the winners were usually the same few kids.  i don't think this would happen if it were random; fitness and motivation make a big difference.

Salix Babylonika

i'm not sure i follow how this implies "almost complete randomness"

i mean i think this is usually said with reference to sports, in which the winners are likely to be the kids who are most active and most determined to win, i think?

Grade school sports are not really ever reflective of future athletic talents.

Not to mention this is usually talked about re: sports days, which are like mini-Olympics, and are a hotbed of parents who care way too much about what piece of chintzy coated plastic their children receive.

Princess Alice

Honestly this always struck me as another emobidment of the "screw you, got mine" culture that poisions so much of America

"Your kid's not natually athletic and stood no chance of ever winning against kids with different body types? Too bad, they should have learned it's their own fault for not trying harder."

Tachyon

i know what sports day is.

i am not convinced.  Seems to me the people who are best at things are often people who started doing them in early childhood, and if you're not interested in active play when you're small i think there's a good chance that kind of activity won't ever appeal.

i mean i could be completely wrong, are there statistics on this?  But what i'm saying feels right and mostly aligns with my own experiences.

Salix Babylonika

ok but see point 2.

Anonus

athletic culture seems kind of repressive in general

"if your whole life isn't about playing this game, you'll never succeed at it"

Anonus

also people act like this stuff is life and death and I'm really not sure why

Tachyon

i am also unsure to what extent natural body types play a role here.

By which i mean i don't know, not that i'm sceptical.  i can readily believe they play a fairly significant role, but i don't think that devalues the achievements of the ones who, having a body suited to athletic success, are sufficiently driven and put in the necessary work to get good at it.

Point 2?  If you mean the sports day thing, well, i guess that's not really my experience of them.  Sports days were something we just had to do and most kids seemed to enjoy them.  If nothing else, it was time off from study and we got to spend it outside.

Hexartes

Children's sports are terrible. And trust me, at elementary school level (any higher and it won't be everyone getting a trophy) there is pretty much no difference in skill. It's all about natural talent. It sucks too, because when I was that age I absolutely picked up on the fact that no one thought I deserved anything. I think dedication to physical activity at a young age should be rewarded.

Tachyon

Anonus said:

athletic culture seems kind of repressive in general

"if your whole life isn't about playing this game, you'll never succeed at it"

not true, and it depends what level you're playing at

if you want to get good at ANY activity you generally need to spend a lot of time at it

Tachyon

Kexruct said:

Children's sports are terrible. And trust me, at elementary school level (any higher and it won't be everyone getting a trophy) there is pretty much no difference in skill. It's all about natural talent. It sucks too, because when I was that age I absolutely picked up on the fact that no one thought I deserved anything. I think dedication to physical activity at a young age should be rewarded.

Elementary school includes kids up to the age of 11, i think?  In which case yes there certainly is a big difference in skill.

Yarrun XIX

Crystal

Centie: Honestly this always struck me as another emobidment of the "screw you, got mine" culture that poisions so much of America

"Your kid's not natually athletic and stood no chance of ever winning against kids with different body types? Too bad, they should have learned it's their own fault for not trying harder."

Well I mean, to a degree, yeah. You don't simply get good at sports out of nowhere, and barring cases of cheating sports winners have always simply been the best. Whether or not they are the same few kids.

Anyway, I always found the idea of everyone receiving a prize for sports days - or really sports in general - to be incredibly silly, and at least a little mock-worthy. Aside from the fact that they're just chintzy trash, if you weren't good enough to get first, second, or third place, then that is the long and short of it; you just didn't make the cut and have something more to work towards. A number of the folks who win tend to be naturally athletic and/or participate in sports at an early age and any other number of things, but it's not like I only saw folks with clean and pure bodies winning anyway, personally speaking. Athletic hindrances are simply one more challenge to overcome, and to me, shouldn't be used as a reason for your not being able to achieve something (barring obviously harsh issues like chronic pain).

I'm also not a fan of "sports culture", though I also don't rally agree with the repressiveness that Anonus mentioned. That said, I haven't followed the sports I like or been in the sports I like to any meaningful degree for some years now so I'll just take his word for it.

Salix Babylonika

'k see that's the thing though, participation medals are actually not that common a practice (no school I've ever been at has done them) but people act like they're everywhere and somehow killing America.

Crystal

That is why I said the idea. I mean I could have gone into how I never saw them too, but that's functionally irrelevant if I'm talking about my general take on them.

Anonus

Tachyon said:

Anonus said:

athletic culture seems kind of repressive in general

"if your whole life isn't about playing this game, you'll never succeed at it"

not true, and it depends what level you're playing at

if you want to get good at ANY activity you generally need to spend a lot of time at it

I know that!

I guess it just feels more pronounced to me because I've usually seen it go hand-in-hand with what I'd describe as toxic masculinity

I saw Drew Magary describe it like if Russell Wilson (Seahawks quarterback) liked painting, the various people who molded him into the football player he is now would be like "NOPE"

Salix Babylonika

is there much a point in mocking something that doesn't really happen

Tachyon

ok, well, that's silly, at least

the suggestion that something that's not that common is 'killing america', i mean

Crystal

is there much a point in mocking something that doesn't really happen

I don't? I seriously don't get how you're drawing these things from my comments, it's a little annoying especially when that was only one part of my comment anyway. I have not ever actually mocked them, but that doesn't mean I don't find it silly (which is why I'm glad I've never seen them).

Besides that, I would think my stance on mockery is at least slightly understood by now, but I guess it isn't. I find the killing America comments more silly, though why mention something that's tangential to what I want to focus on?

Tachyon

Anonus said:

Tachyon said:

Anonus said:

athletic culture seems kind of repressive in general

"if your whole life isn't about playing this game, you'll never succeed at it"

not true, and it depends what level you're playing at

if you want to get good at ANY activity you generally need to spend a lot of time at it

I know that!

I guess it just feels more pronounced to me because I've usually seen it go hand-in-hand with what I'd describe as toxic masculinity

I saw Drew Magary describe it like if Russell Wilson (Seahawks quarterback) liked painting, the various people who molded him into the football player he is now would be like "NOPE"

Telling someone they can't enjoy painting sounds pretty toxic, yes.

Princess Alice

I mean I could understand if the argument were presented as "giving everybody the same prize devalues the accomplishments of the kids who actually tried harder", yes

But I never see it framed that way

It's always "giving kids prizes just for trying will give them a sense of entitlement!", which...uh, yeah, no

Salix Babylonika

Planet Jane said:

is there much a point in mocking something that doesn't really happen

I don't? I seriously don't get how you're drawing these things from my comments, it's a little annoying especially when that was only one part of my comment anyway. I have not ever actually mocked them, but that doesn't mean I don't find it silly (which is why I'm glad I've never seen them).

You said the idea was and I quote "a little mock-worthy".

I'm not sure where you're drawing whatever you're drawing from my comments, I wasn't really talking about you.

Crystal

Yes, it is in theory; doesn't mean I do. I can get why I've seen some of my friends have mocked them idea, even if I find that silly. Fair, though, my bad. I guess I explained that badly, so eh.

^^ Sure, I disagree with that, though it's not my particular stance. Shrug

Tachyon

Central Avenue said:

I mean I could understand if the argument were presented as "giving everybody the same prize devalues the accomplishments of the kids who actually tried harder", yes

But I never see it framed that way

It's always "giving kids prizes just for trying will give them a sense of entitlement!", which...uh, yeah, no

The former seemed to be the message of The Incredibles, which honestly is what i chiefly associate this complaint with, having seldom encountered it IRL

Salix Babylonika

Tachyon said:

Central Avenue said:

I mean I could understand if the argument were presented as "giving everybody the same prize devalues the accomplishments of the kids who actually tried harder", yes

But I never see it framed that way

It's always "giving kids prizes just for trying will give them a sense of entitlement!", which...uh, yeah, no

The former seemed to be the message of The Incredibles, which honestly is what i chiefly associate this complaint with, having seldom encountered it IRL

well, and I mean no offense, you live in the UK.

"Step on everyone else to get what you want and never feel bad about it" is a uniquely American sort of assholishness. Most people at least try to come up with an excuse.

Tachyon

Fair enough.  i guess this is a thing i lack the cultural context for.

Tachyon

British assholishness would i guess be more along the lines of "You're either deserving or you're not, and if you're not, know your damn place."

Hexartes

It's children's sports. Ultimately the ideal is that you're giving them positive experiences with the activity, it's not like victory or loss actually, like, means anything. By favoring certain children who, for various reasons, are more athletic (as if relative athleticism particularly matters for seven year olds) you kinda sour the experience for the others early on.

Salix Babylonika

and the other kids pick up on that as well, so you end up with kids that have

oh I don't know

let's say asthma, hypothetically

being picked on by both their peers and the adults who should be preventing that kind of thing, which can pretty easily make school suck.

Anonus

oh speaking of which there's also people who act like the proliferation of kids with food allergies is a sign that today's generation is soft

Section42L

Tachyon said:

Central Avenue said:

I mean I could understand if the argument were presented as "giving everybody the same prize devalues the accomplishments of the kids who actually tried harder", yes

But I never see it framed that way

It's always "giving kids prizes just for trying will give them a sense of entitlement!", which...uh, yeah, no

The former seemed to be the message of The Incredibles, which honestly is what i chiefly associate this complaint with, having seldom encountered it IRL

This is only tangentially related, but other people have already gone off on tangents themselves, so...

I always thought that tagging Brad Bird with the "Ayn Rand" tag was a bit unfair.

I think this post is pretty accurate as to where those impulses in his work come from.

Crystal

Positive experiences are cool, I like them. The favoring was always less of an issue with me than the times kids got picked on for not being as athletic, which to me would be there with or without physical examples of how well you did and whatnot. Personally, uniformly doing away with celebratory things in kids' sports days would be fine in my books (although I guess anything physical, theoretical or otherwise, is nice as a memento of sorts), since bullying is more important... but that can't quite be done away with as easily.

Hexartes

Yeah it's pretty amazing how quickly kids establish a hierarchy of who is or isn't athletic. It may not seem like a big deal, but the hierarchy lasted- in my experience, at least- well into high school. Setting up positive attitudes early on is important. With young children in sports, you need to be rewarding dedication, not victory.

Salix Babylonika

like OK you can call me bitter if you want but when I was in elementary and middle school I was literally not allowed to do gym class and of the four gym teachers I had only the one I had for my last two years actually respected that, the other three would make me do it anyway, which meant that every Thursday I would be a hacking, wheezing mess by the time it was over, which also made me pretty much unable to do anything that required any level of concentration for the remaining 2 1/2 hours of the day (we had gym right before lunch).

And for those of you going "well why didn't your parents say anything?" They did. Our principal emptily promised them it'd stop and I was threatened with detention if I brought it up again, and when you're 10 and otherwise rule-abiding, detention is scary, so I didn't bring it up again.

Obā-san

gym teachers are maniacal sadists, i see no other possible reason one would go into being a gym teacher

Salix Babylonika

well ironically the only one I ever had who was in the military prior (and I'm sure y'all know that whole stereotype) was actually the only one who respected my doctor's note (s/o Mrs. Iasello).

Crystal

Well that's awful, sorry you had to deal with that.

I always liked gym stuff, though I was never a top player in sports junk.

Salix Babylonika

yea everyone in this thread

if you ever have/adopt/whatever children, don't send them to private school

Obā-san

Gym classes were so heinously awful that i became obese to spite the entire idea of physical exercise

lee4hmz

I liked dodgeball

here, The Cheat, have a trophy

MetaFour

Here, The Cheat, have another trophy.