Interventionism

One-Winged Eagle

The desire for interventionism is messed up because:

• it is ultimately one in a long line of toxic expansionist beliefs and philosophies, 
• the American strain of it had its start in Manifest Destiny, which elevated the virtues and qualities of the early American people, stating that it had a destiny of virtue, a moral mission, and an ethical duty to transform the entire continent in its image, eventually annexing large parts of Mexico, waging war in Spain and in the Philippines;
• is ultimately the result of a great many atrocities and erasures, all across the world, not only limited to the west
• creates a fiction that reduces the interveners to "the civilized saviors" and the intervened to "the helpless barbarians"

The premise that everyone - no matter what - are just people is:

• ultimately true, but;
• also ultimately false, because nobody believes that,
• attempting to disregard the distinctions that we place upon ourselves engenders:
• resentment,
• hatred,
• hostility,
• bitterness,

The premise that interventionism consists of "asking nicely" is:

• disingenious, because it disregards coercion by military might and the threat of the use of nuclear weapons;
  
• is impossible exactly because of the above factors.

Most interventions are doomed to fail because:

• it is impossible to determine by mortal means the validity of a call for help, 
• those that do have the means to call for help\, do it on behalf of a political agenda and wish to use the interventionists' power for their own ends
• the only ones capable of doing such a thing without hugely inconveniencing their economies are nations with powerful militaries;
  
• militaries are restrictive by nature, and so:
• that restrictiveness and stress placed on the common soldier leads to violent and cruel releases of tension,
• militaries have to be strong, or appear strong, and so it is in their best interest not to reveal these vulnerabilities,
• the threat of discovery does nothing to stop the individual from acting anyway;
• the same also goes for acts of human greed;
• militaries have a vested interest in causing pain, look no further than the "enhanced interrogation techniques" research perpetuated by the CIA

Non-military intervention is equally doomed to fail because:

• the only ones capable of large-scale intervention are those with highly-capitalistic societies, which:
  
• reduces people to consumers, dehumanizing them,
• destroys ways of life by being the cheaper alternative,
• any claim to altruism is either fraudulent or a self-deception by the very nature of a capitalistic society,
• even non-profit groups may attain capital by producing a good self-image to attract investors and donators and volunteers, making true altruism actually impossible,
• often take the protection of militaries, who: 
• have the interest in continuing the conflict until it is inconvenient,
• are often co-opted to become military interventions for this very reason

The idea that the only choice is for the blind to lead the blind is:

• patently ridiculous;
  
• states that "you" as a blind man don't know anything and thus are unqualified to lead anybody;
  
• ignores the choice where everyone finds their own way;
  
• seriously have you ever seen two inexperienced blind people lead each other, it's a mess;
• at any rate it's more like everybody is lost and nobody has a map

Is it so hard to:

• stay at home and clean "your" house?
  

Salix Babylonika

nobody on this forum supports interventionism.

Klinotaxis

i believe this is part of an argument with gmh

lee4hmz

The reason the US hasn't cleaned its own house is that, to put it bluntly, we've been duped. And a good part of the country not only doesn't realise it yet, but is perfectly happy with believing the lies the right is selling to them:

* WAR IS PEACE: Vietnam. The War on Terror. Both sold as a defense of and bolstering of peace and democracy, but instead became protracted and destructive foreign wars. We lost the first one. It's entirely likely we'll lose the second (for whatever a loss condition would be—the fall of Israel? Syria? Iraq? Does anyone really know for sure?) 

* SLAVERY IS FREEDOM: Slavery in the US is not dead. We have the largest prison population in the world, both in raw numbers and per capita, and a stunning number of those are African-Americans. As Common said on the Oscars Sunday, there are more blacks in prison now than were slaves in 1850. And for what? To guarantee that people can be "free"? Maybe if you're rich and white enough!

* IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH: Bigotry is at a level in the US unmatched since the Jim Crow era. Right-wing groups have been bashing Obama even before he was inaugurated; anti-Semitism is on the rise both here and in Europe; and rampant, virulent misogyny is showing up on the Internet and in real life even as gay rights take huge legal strides. People have been told not to question the right-wing party line, lest their patriotism be put into question; that vaccinations can cause autism, despite mounds of scientific evidence to the contrary; that global warming couldn't possibly be man-made, even as the climate is changing around us while we watch. You can't just ignore a problem and hope it will go away; more likely, the problem will make you go away.